When to descend?

[stagger]

Established is ok

Flew a holding pattern in PHL today and as I said... I called established in holding at the fix. The controller said established is one of several terms that are ok to use.Entering holding is only used by former stan-eval guys.....just joking.

stagger

 

[TIS]

I perceive that there is a bit too much anger or sarcasm here to reach out in a way that promotes meaningful discussion. I was looking for information, not a fight.

And you got information - to which you replied by saying something about practical application having no place in a DME arc.

Then I gave you more PUBLISHED information which you responded to by saying that you weren't interested in approach construction, even though approach construction contains the information required to answer your question.

Finally, in a round about sort of way, I queried you as to how you justify the method you use at present and suggested that it isn't some arbitrary thing you pulled out of your hat.

And you say there's too much anger. Can we all just sit in a circle and sing Kum Bay Ya?

Obviously, I am not the one to be telling you anything so I'll stop trying.

TIS

 

[memooch]

Further Guidance

Here's my $0.02 to the DME arc part of this thread:

FAA-H-8261-1, page 5-36, Figure 5-26. Great pictures. Personally, I'd keep it as close to the centerline as possible.

http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/aviation/instrument_procedures_handbook/media/ch_5.pdf

 

[100LL... Again!]

THe Arc has the same protection as an airway, which is to say, 1000' above any obstacle 4 nm from centerline, and 500' tapering to zero from 4nm to 8nm. If a fed or a check airman was looking over my shoulder, i'd probably wait until I had completed the turn onto the arc, merely because it's a grey area and who knows what opinion (right or wrong) that guy holds. ie: the most conservative approach is the path of least resistance when subject to official oversight. Left to my own devices, I have no qualms about starting a descent as I start my turn onto the arc (about 1.5-1.7 NM before the arc) after all I'm 6.5 miles past anything I could possibly hit at arc altitude (assuming correct altimeter setting) and it's another 9.5 nm until anything else I could hit.

Didn't you mean from 4 to 6nm the protection tapers fromm 500 to zero ft obstacle clearance?

 

[100LL... Again!]

I think that TIS is guilty of deciding that is own interpretation is gospel. I still did not see any real answer to Tony's question.

After many hours studying terps, the AIM, etc, I think it is clear that the definition of "established" for navigational courses is somewhat vague.

Many pilots THINK that they are able to divine the meaning of FARs, etc., but all the clever lawyering in the world won't count for beans if the FAA/ALJ/NTSB full board hearing think differently.

I would love to see one of these guys arguing a certificate action based on his own interpretations. Clever as though they might be.

Fact is, anyone who has been in this game long enough realizes that there are more vague rules than clear ones due to the potential for conflicting fars/op specs/ etc.

We ALL KNOW what established means with regard to SAFE operations. What is unclear is how the FAA would interpret it in an enforcement action.

Sometimes I think the FAA likes it a little muddy.



While we are at it, can anyone show a reference for the phrase "established in the hold"? ATC manual, PHAK, etc?

 

[YGBSM]

Hard to post without using the word "gospel"?