When to descend?

[PropsR4Boats]

For ATC reporting you are established in the hold when you cross the fix.

I don't really understand your question. Why would you align yourself?

 

[TonyC]

OK, so the responses so far are following a close pattern. We agree that I would need to be established on the 12 DME arc, right?


MTpilot, that "cleared or established" was a typo, right? You meant cleared and eatablished, right?


And when we're established on the 12 DME arc, we're established on an Initial Approach Segment, right? The portion between the IAF (in this case the CHS 219/12) and the intermediate segment is the initial segment. OK, I don't really care if it's the initial segment or the intermediate segment, I just wanted to mention that point since it was brought up.

And to appease prpjt on the clearance terminology, I'll amend the clearance. We'll say ATC clears you, "BigDog three echo papa, fly present heading, join the Charleston 12 DME ARC, Maintain three thousand until established, cleared ILS Runway 15" (revised portion in bold)


So, again, what constitutes "established" on the arc?


I calculate my lead point based on ground speed and decide to begin a left turn at 13.1 DME. Am I established as soon as I begin the turn? Am I established when I get within 13.0 DME? Am I established only when the DME reads 12.0?

And here is where I came up short the last time around - - reference please.

Thanks!






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[PropsR4Boats]

You guys make me laugh. You make it so hard. Have your instructor go over it with you, and keep reading your AIM and instrument procedures book. (that’s a new book put out by the FAA)

Reading and applying helps you figure out what to do on other tricky procedures. Soon you will be briefing an approach a couple minutes before you start it. I promise this way is the best way. Just read and look at a bunch of approaches then chair fly'em.

 

[TonyC]

You guys make me laugh. You make it so hard. Have your instructor go over it with you, and keep reading your AIM and instrument procedures book. (that’s a new book put out by the FAA)

Reading and applying helps you figure out what to do on other tricky procedures. Soon you will be briefing an approach a couple minutes before you start it. I promise this way is the best way. Just read and look at a bunch of approaches then chair fly'em.

OK, Props. If it's so easy, give me a number and a reference, please.








By the way, if it's in AIM, I'll buy you dinner at Ruth's Chris.




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[prpjt]

+/- 1 mile is in my AIM now. Let's go eat.

The only place I've ever seen +/- 1 printed is in the PTS.

I meant to say Initial Approach Segment, but I left out a '0'

Protected airspace on the initial segment is 4 miles lateral and a 2 mi. buffer.

Controllers can have aircraft on arcs 10 miles apart within 35 miles of the station.

None of this answers the question "What is established?"

 

[TonyC]

+/- 1 mile is in my AIM now. Let's go eat.

The only place I've ever seen +/- 1 printed is in the PTS.

I meant to say Initial Approach Segment, but I left out a '0'

Protected airspace on the initial segment is 4 miles lateral and a 2 mi. buffer.

Controllers can have aircraft on arcs 10 miles apart within 35 miles of the station.

None of this answers the question "What is established?"

Uh huh. I'm with ya.









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[Yellow Snow]

Okay, so now let's say you are going straight for WANDO intersection from the east. You align youself with the CHS 155R outbound, hit WANDO, do the teardrop. If ATC says "let me know when you are established in the hold," when are you established? After passing the intersection and doing the teardrop? Or once inbound on the 235R?

I believe the AIM says you are established in a hold when you begin the inbound leg. it would be inbound on the 235 radial.

 

[Yellow Snow]

Yeah but......I'm squawkin 7600.

squawk 7700 it gets you more attention when you land.

 

[Snakum]

Too weird ... I have a two-day into CHS on Monday.

I'd ask for the full DME and then watch what my Captain briefs for me to fly, but he'd probably just smack me in the side of the head with his aluminum lapboard and say "Do you know how much fuel this thing burns per hour!?! Just request a visual and get it down, before I make you wish you'd worn a parachute to work today! Idiot boy!"



Minh "Idiot boy!" Thong

 

[PA31Ho]

See, I would think 'established in a hold' is after crossing a fix regardless of which type of entry. Now I see somebody posting 'inbound on the 235'. I'm out of town right now with no AIM, I'm just curious and I couldn't wait to get home to find the answers.

 

[CFI4LIFE]

See, I would think 'established in a hold' is after crossing a fix regardless of which type of entry.

You would be correct! The AIM says you must report the time and altitude/flight level at which you reach (or depart) a clearance limit. It says nothing about reporting when on the inbound leg.

 

[Singlecoil]

You would be correct! The AIM says you must report the time and altitude/flight level at which you reach (or depart) a clearance limit. It says nothing about reporting when on the inbound leg.

We need Vector4fun here because I believe the amount of airspace they protect shrinks slightly after you report "established". A parallel entry in particular can take you a little wide in the pattern, that's why I'm thinking "established" is when you have intercepted the desired radial/course and are tracking it inbound.

 

[Vector4fun]

We need Vector4fun here because I believe the amount of airspace they protect shrinks slightly after you report "established". A parallel entry in particular can take you a little wide in the pattern, that's why I'm thinking "established" is when you have intercepted the desired radial/course and are tracking it inbound.

You're correct as far as I know.


A couple decades ago, when I worked non-radar, we would sometimes ask for a report "Established in Holding", as that let us protect a slightly smaller bit of airspace. In most cases, it didn't really matter, but sometimes you had two holding patterns that just barely overlapped, or a route that just barely toched the protected airspace when plotted out. Of course, we also had to take into effect the altitude and speed of the holding aircraft as well, because the holding airspace changed somewhat depending on those parameters.

I haven't given it a second thought since I started working radar. We don't plot out the protected airspace anymore. We don't even pratice non-radar as a back-up anymore. In ten years, there will only be a few controllers in the terminals who've ever done it. In a radar environment, I seldom even ask for a report "Entering holding". I can see you have. Some Center guy who has some low, non-radar sectors in his/her specialty may be able to tell ya whether they still even plot out the reduced holding airspace. I sort of doubt it at most places.


"Climb on the 323 degree radial, intercept the 45 DME arc southwest, intercept J15, cross 17 DME at or below one zero thousand, intercept J15 at or above one six thousand, maintain flight level two two zero..."

Ahhh, those were the days, no GPS, FMS, flight directors or radar. Headwork and scratchpads....

 

[TIS]

You guys have too many balls in the air at once.

First, TonyC asks about the approach with an arc,

When are you established?

You're established, in your scenario, when you're on the arc. That means when you're at 12 miles. The +/- stuff is a PTS standard that is not applicable to anything but a Practical Test. You're supposed to stay at the correct distance all the time.

Established with respect to any type of course guidance means when you are on the centerline of the course in question. I've seen an FAA interpretation from the guy in Washington who knows all about what the regs mean (someone here must remember his name - I can't). If you can find him you can probably locate the same source for this info that I did.

Next, somehow this got into when you're established in a hold. You're established in a hold when you are on the centerline of the inbound course.

We need Vector4fun here because I believe the amount of airspace they protect shrinks slightly after you report "established". A parallel entry in particular can take you a little wide in the pattern, that's why I'm thinking "established" is when you have intercepted the desired radial/course and are tracking it inbound.

This is correct. The protected airspace does indeed shrink when you are established in the hold.

Being established in a hold should not be confused with reporting the hold entry. They are two different things and they are NOT interchangable. As I said, you are established in a hold when you are on the centerline of the inbound course. It's in the Controllers' Handbook (FAA Order 7110.65N)

The report you're supposed to make is to be made when you reach, "...a holding fix or a point to which cleared." (AIM 5-3-3 [f]) It is not as CFI4LIFE puts it:

The AIM says you must report the time and altitude/flight level at which you reach (or depart) a clearance limit.

However, CFI4LIFE is correct about this:

It says nothing about reporting when on the inbound leg.

Reading carefully, you can see that being established in a hold and reaching a holding fix are not the same thing. It is really not accurate to used the phraseology "established" in the hold as your entry report because you cannot have become established on the inbound leg of a holding pattern before you've reached the holing fix in the first place.

I realize that you could come up an airway and hold on it but until you reach the holding fix you're on an airway and not a holding course. It's splitting hairs I know but that's the way it is.

TIS

 

[Donsa320]

We need Vector4fun here because I believe the amount of airspace they protect shrinks slightly after you report "established". A parallel entry in particular can take you a little wide in the pattern, that's why I'm thinking "established" is when you have intercepted the desired radial/course and are tracking it inbound.

You are established in the hold when you cross the holding fix the first time, This has been true since TERPS was adopted in 1973 in the United States and the ANC (Army/Navy/Civilian) agreements were terminated.
The fancy entering manuevers are designed to keep you in the holding airspace if you are at the correct indicated airspeed for your altitude.

In other parts of the world your mileage may vary. <g>

~DC