When to descend?

[MTpilot]

Yeah but......I'm squawkin 7600.

 

[PA31Ho]

Yeah but......I'm squawkin 7600.

too funny

 

[prpjt]

Suppose you're proceeding direct to the Charleston VOR along the 250 degree radial (070 degree course) and you're maintaining 3,000 feet. ATC clears you, "BigDog three echo papa, join the Charleston 12 DME ARC, Maintain three thousand until established, cleared ILS Runway 15"

To descend, you must be cleared and established.
When are you established?
.

Maybe the ATC types will correct me if I'm wrong, but I think "established" is short for " established on a published portion of the approach". Our local guys use all the verbage. So IMO you are established when on the arc +/- 1 mile. The arc in this case is the intermediate segment and you have met the clearance criteria.

I do think they would say "fly present heading to join the arc,maintain3 ......

I have been cleared on an arc but told not to descend. I remember the cleareance being something like " fly present heading to join the 15 DME arc, maintain 5000 until established on the localizer,cleared ILS 17"

 

[PropsR4Boats]

Read your AIM guys, this is very very clear. Refer to my past post. You may hear slang etc. Stick to what the book says.

 

[PA31Ho]

Okay, so now let's say you are going straight for WANDO intersection from the east. You align youself with the CHS 155R outbound, hit WANDO, do the teardrop. If ATC says "let me know when you are established in the hold," when are you established? After passing the intersection and doing the teardrop? Or once inbound on the 235R?

 

[PropsR4Boats]

For ATC reporting you are established in the hold when you cross the fix.

I don't really understand your question. Why would you align yourself?

 

[TonyC]

OK, so the responses so far are following a close pattern. We agree that I would need to be established on the 12 DME arc, right?


MTpilot, that "cleared or established" was a typo, right? You meant cleared and eatablished, right?


And when we're established on the 12 DME arc, we're established on an Initial Approach Segment, right? The portion between the IAF (in this case the CHS 219/12) and the intermediate segment is the initial segment. OK, I don't really care if it's the initial segment or the intermediate segment, I just wanted to mention that point since it was brought up.

And to appease prpjt on the clearance terminology, I'll amend the clearance. We'll say ATC clears you, "BigDog three echo papa, fly present heading, join the Charleston 12 DME ARC, Maintain three thousand until established, cleared ILS Runway 15" (revised portion in bold)


So, again, what constitutes "established" on the arc?


I calculate my lead point based on ground speed and decide to begin a left turn at 13.1 DME. Am I established as soon as I begin the turn? Am I established when I get within 13.0 DME? Am I established only when the DME reads 12.0?

And here is where I came up short the last time around - - reference please.

Thanks!






.

 

[PropsR4Boats]

You guys make me laugh. You make it so hard. Have your instructor go over it with you, and keep reading your AIM and instrument procedures book. (that’s a new book put out by the FAA)

Reading and applying helps you figure out what to do on other tricky procedures. Soon you will be briefing an approach a couple minutes before you start it. I promise this way is the best way. Just read and look at a bunch of approaches then chair fly'em.

 

[TonyC]

You guys make me laugh. You make it so hard. Have your instructor go over it with you, and keep reading your AIM and instrument procedures book. (that’s a new book put out by the FAA)

Reading and applying helps you figure out what to do on other tricky procedures. Soon you will be briefing an approach a couple minutes before you start it. I promise this way is the best way. Just read and look at a bunch of approaches then chair fly'em.

OK, Props. If it's so easy, give me a number and a reference, please.








By the way, if it's in AIM, I'll buy you dinner at Ruth's Chris.




.

 

[prpjt]

+/- 1 mile is in my AIM now. Let's go eat.

The only place I've ever seen +/- 1 printed is in the PTS.

I meant to say Initial Approach Segment, but I left out a '0'

Protected airspace on the initial segment is 4 miles lateral and a 2 mi. buffer.

Controllers can have aircraft on arcs 10 miles apart within 35 miles of the station.

None of this answers the question "What is established?"