When does it become 135?

[Lead Sled]

FN FAL...

Well said. My point is however that "If it looks like a duck..." it will get the Feds to asking questions. Granted, you can pretty much do what you want with legitimate students. However, take a legitimate student, stuff him and one of his friends into your local flight school Seneca and have his logbook entry read something along the lines of "multi-engine and crosscountry familiarization" and you're going to raise some eyebrows. Like I said in one of my earlier posts, this is an old dodge and more than a few eager young CFIs have been nailed trying to pull it off. Personally, for the very few hours you'll get doing it, it's just not worth it if you have ANY doubts about the legitimacy of the particuliar "instructional flight".

You also made a comment about leasing or renting an airplane and in a "separate well documented transaction" hiring a pilot to fly it. That too is possible, but it has to be done correctly or you could easily find yourself spending some "quality, one-on-one time" with one of your friendly local feds. Just last week, I spoke with an aviation attorney about it. Our boss want to allow some of his friends to use the jet on special occassions. The attorney made it very clear that the FAA wants a lease drawn up and on file with the FAA. The local FSDO must also be notified 24 hours prior to any flights so that they can, if they desire, come out and see what's going on. There are some very specific reimbursement guidelines that have to be met as well. Finally, the insurance company also should be brought into the picture - it would be pretty easy to breach your coverage at some point.

One final caution. Over the years, I've had a few solo X-C students try to mix business and flying. That's a big problem as well. Even if they happen to need to go to a city that is one of your "normal" X-C stops. "Hey, that's where we normally send our students anyway, he just wanted to spend an extra 2 or 3 hours on the ground before starting back..." That won't wash with the FAA either.

I'm not trying to rain on anyone's parade, but I've seen a lot of "self-inflicted" wounds by pilots trying to maximize their "opportunities" during the past 38 years. Be careful.

Lead Sled

 

[YaMama]

Thanks for the input everybody, I am indeed a CFI. The student is post-solo, and the trip will be in a 172, which is what he normally flies. How about this? Airline service is readily available between these two cities, and if the guy's only goal were transportation he could just as easily buy a ticket and get there in a comparable amount of time, with greater reliability and a fraction of the cost.

The AC posted by Geigo was interesting to read, but hard to find much in there that applies directly to this situation - if anything it leaves me with the impression that restricting these flights to pilots sort of eliminates them from "common carriage," but I would still like to read some cases where a pilot got violated for illegal charter. Out of curiousity, if the FAA were going to make an issue of this, would they take it up with the pilot only, or would the company and/or chief pilot also have something to answer for? As PIC, obviously I have ultimate responsibility for safety of the flight, but when we are just interpreting legalities and my 20,000 hour chief who used to work for the FAA says go ahead and do it -- it seems to me that he should take responsibility in the legal dimension. But perhaps I'm being pretty naive

 

[FN FAL]

As PIC, obviously I have ultimate responsibility for safety of the flight, but when we are just interpreting legalities and my 20,000 hour chief who used to work for the FAA says go ahead and do it -- it seems to me that he should take responsibility in the legal dimension. But perhaps I'm being pretty naive

There's nothing wrong with being concerned about your ratings and your future in aviaiton. I can only say that if this type of thing bothers you...ask FSDO. It's what we pay them to do.

 

[FN FAL]

You also made a comment about leasing or renting an airplane and in a "separate well documented transaction" hiring a pilot to fly it. That too is possible, but it has to be done correctly or you could easily find yourself spending some "quality, one-on-one time" with one of your friendly local feds. Just last week, I spoke with an aviation attorney about it. Our boss want to allow some of his friends to use the jet on special occassions. The attorney made it very clear that the FAA wants a lease drawn up and on file with the FAA. The local FSDO must also be notified 24 hours prior to any flights so that they can, if they desire, come out and see what's going on. There are some very specific reimbursement guidelines that have to be met as well. Finally, the insurance company also should be brought into the picture - it would be pretty easy to breach your coverage at some point.

True...you do have to be very carefull in this type of situation. You mention two things here that are the best things...FSDO and Aviation Attorneys.

Having a good aviation attorney nearby is a good thing and having a good relationship with FSDO is a good thing as well.

If I was going to do PILOT SERVICES regularly, I would drop a fee on my friend the aviation attorney and get things organized...then I would take my documention down to the FSDO after making an appointment with them to talk about the matter.

If I added new clients, I would take out my business card of the guy I was dealing with down at FSDO and send him off a professional letter indicating such changes.

As with the insurance...it rules everything we do and so does liability. Incorporating is also a good thing.

I already have a corp. If someone approached me to fly a plane they were considering leasing or renting and they wanted me to fly it for them as a Pilot Services pilot...I could move on that almost immediately.

If someone came up to me with a plan to something similar but the same as that...I would be on the phone to my lawyer immediately if I thought there was some money to be made doing it.

If I had a guy off the street with no student pilot certificate and a log book with only one entry in it looking to travel the friendly skies... I know what to do as well. I would sell him a block of $5,000 bucks worth of my time as a free-lance CFI, up front. I will tell him to go get his medical. I will then establish a sylabus with his name on it. And we will make him fly himself all over timbucktoo...whether he likes it or not. Kind of hard to call it a charter if the student does all the flying and attempts all the takeoffs and landings and is documented as enrolled in a program of flight instruction.

If I had anyquestions about such a thing...I'd ask FSDO as well.