Whe are you considered established?

[328dude]

This question came up in a sim session not long ago. If your givin a hold that requires a entry other than a direct, when are you considered established? Once the entry begins or when you pass the fix?

Couldn't find it in the FARS. I really didn't look that hard though.

Anyone, Anyone?

 

[mckpickle]

dont quote me but I think it's the first turn outbound.?.?.?

 

[Chunk]

My guess (and that's what it is) would be passing the fix/facility into protected airspace.


It's technically not a required report.

Chunk

 

[avbug]

Established, for air traffic control purposes, means to be stable or fixed on a route, route segment, altitude, heading, etc.

Until you've passed the fix, you're in transition to the fix. You are not yet established in holding until you have reached the holding fix. It is from the holding fix that the entry must be commenced, indicating that this is the start of the hold. Therefore, one cannot be established in holding until reaching the fix.

 

[Chunk]

Yeah...wait...didn't I say that?

 

[mckpickle]

Established, for air traffic control purposes, means to be stable or fixed on a route, route segment, altitude, heading, etc.

Until you've passed the fix, you're in transition to the fix. You are not yet established in holding until you have reached the holding fix. It is from the holding fix that the entry must be commenced, indicating that this is the start of the hold. Therefore, one cannot be established in holding until reaching the fix.

Although I do agree isnt this just "entering" the hold? I dont think you would be established just crossing the fix say on a TD or PA entry. Ideas?

 

[dogg]

You are "established" abeam the fix on your first turn in hold on the holding side....You have "entered" the hold when you cross over the fix for the first time while performing your holding pattern entry..

 

[Chunk]

Dogg,

Do you have a reference?

Chunk

 

[bobbysamd]

Crossing the fix

My vote would be at the time you cross the holding fix and are entering the hold. The airspace is protected for you at that point.

We had extended debates on the subject at Riddle.

Chunk is correct that, technically, per the FARs, entering holding is not a required report unless you are in a non-radar environment. But, I recall, that the AIM still recommends it. So, if the AIM recommends it, it is good enough for me.

 

[ksus]

Fly Chicago has the correct answer, you are established
when you cross the fix.

fly safe!!!!

 

[mckpickle]

Re: Crossing the fix

My vote would be at the time you cross the holding fix and are entering the hold. The airspace is protected for you at that point.

We had extended debates on the subject at Riddle.

Chunk is correct that, technically, per the FARs, entering holding is not a required report unless you are in a non-radar environment. But, I recall, that the AIM still recommends it. So, if the AIM recommends it, it is good enough for me.

What about a parallel entry with a 20 kt crosswind?

 

[172driver]

Who cares when you're established? I am guessing that you have all been taught to report 'established' in the hold? In fact, you should report reaching the holding fix.

As far as I'm concerned, you're not established until you roll out right on the inbound course and have the appropriate time on the inbound leg.

 

[Chunk]

.....which could take 2,3, or more laps to nail down to one minute?

That doesn't make much sense to me.

 

[bigsky]

172 driver is probably the most correct. I hear many instructors argue when you are established...if I used some of that criteria it may be a full half an hour before I was established. The only thing I have ever found in print is to' report the time and altitiude upon reaching a holding fix or point to which it was cleared'

 

[AAflyer]

Bigsky,

Not sure I agree with 172. I would have to go with FlyChicaga. As for timing when was the last time you flew a standard race-track with time in a transport category jet?

I have, and seen most all airline guys ask for 10 or 20 mile legs, usually allowing the FMC to compute a heading on the published track based on winds, timing then is irrelevant (sp?). When was the last time you slowed the DC-10 down on the oubound leg to have a proper time on the inbound?

It is funny that there are a few GOOD answers. I have always reported established after passing the fix, no-one has complained yet. You would think it would be more defined.

AAflyer

 

[Singlecoil]

I don't have a reference, but it is my understanding that ATC will protect more airspace when entering holding than when established. If in non-radar they will ask you to report established so they can shrink the amount of airspace around you they are protecting.

It is up to you to determine when you are in the confines of the standard hold and make the report.

A wide direct entry or a parallel entry could put you outside of that smaller protected area.

 

[SkyWestCRJPilot]

I'm no ATC guru but I've talked to an air traffic controller on this one and they don't care. All they want to know is that you're in the hold and out of their hair. Everyone I know that flies professionally seems to report time and altitude crossing the fix intially. It seems that pilots often split hairs about things like this regarding ATC and most often the controllers don't care. Just get it done.

 

[328dude]

Im sure ATC dosen't care. That wasent my argument. But for us that are flying glass or FMS equiped aircraft, they give you the hold, you punch it in, it draws a pretty picture on your screen, the airplane flies the hold...my question, when would you tell them that your entering the hold. crossing the fix the first time to start the entry or after the entry is complete and you past the fix again and the airplane is happy again?

This is pretty trivial I know, but it's fun how many diffrent answers you get and everyone being taught diffrent ways.
I asked the feds today, guess what? I got a "ummmm, not real sure about that" Go figure. God Bless the FAA.

 

[bigsky]

AA Flyer :
I was not specific enough and was only refering to 172 drivers first paragraph about only needing to report time and altitude upon reaching fix. As far as slowing on the outbound leg- heck we cant even get slowed enough to fit in the categories of the Faa or/i.c.a.o table 1hold speeds- more less worried about a few seconds outbound.
As far as I am concerned the word established does not seem to exist in the regs(with regards to holding) so I guess it can mean something different to everyone. I have seen cases where the term is used- for example being established on course prior to beginning descent.
I myself report crossing the fix--otherwise last week when I held over a NDB in Frankfurt(I.N.S. equiped airplane-didnt have G.P.S or hold capability) for 20 minutes I never would have reported established... and I cant imagine that is the intent of ATC...theoretically if you had to wait till you had a perfect hold to report established and then you have a screwup or winds change I would think one would then have to report "unestablished"