Whats with Pinnacle..........

[Mr. Irrelevant]

In regards to Dumb Pilot's post, it is interesting to hear him describe the issues they have with these super low time pilots. Just the issues they shouldn't have if they had AT LEAST an additional 1000+ hours of experience doing CFI and/or charter work. Really amazing and illuminating to hear his input on this thread.

Mr. I.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

Did someone say Pinnacle??!!

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=71374&highlight=pinnacle



.

 

[bailey3083]

That's correct. They are presently showing the door to many applicants with thousands of hours, and opening the door to inexperienced JET U applicants with less than 300 hours. That's a fact. Amazing isn't it?

And just for the record, I never have and never will apply at Pinnacle. I would rather commute to Australia.

In the famous words told by a Pinnacle Captain of an inexperienced F.O. It was snowing in DTW and the FO looked at the Captain and said: "Hey, it's snowing out, are we okay to fly then?"

One of the best zero to hero comments by one of these SJS kids I have flown with is " Wow that is the longest I have ever been in a cloud. I just tripled my IFR time!"

 

[Mesabi Miner]

Where they need a LOT of work is in radio work, operations out off heavy traffic airports, that sort of everyday flying stuff that they simply haven't had any experience with. Getting their visual approaches stable seems to be the biggest problem with new applicants.

Seems to me like another 700-1000 hrs in a C-172/Archer/Arrow/Seminole would clear up these problems very nicely. Not knocking on any one company in particular but someone with 300 hours, in my opinion, has no business in a Part 121 airplane. Period.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

I'm in favor of the ATP certificate as a minimum hiring requirement. After all, you are technically an airline pilot after all. Commercial is really only a minimum cert. needed to legally accept payment for your flying duties. 135 IFR minimums are still the norm for operations outside of airline flying, such as single pilot 135 freight and pax operations. With the typical equipment and operations found in scheduled flying, one should at least possess that many hours and have the ATP in hand.

It really says a lot when someone isn't qualified to command a 135 IFR trip, yet be able to fly right seat on regional jets and props.

 

[Dumb Pilot]

I've got a funny story. A few months back, I gave a ride to a lady captain from LAN-DTW. The back was full so she rode with us in the front. While my F/O was doing the walk around, I gave her the J/S brief and told her that I was doing O/E and that she was going to see "instructing" rather than a normal line flight.
At the end of the flight, my F/O jumped out to do his W/A and she thanked me. "Always welcome" I answered. "No, I'm not thanking you for the ride" "I'm thanking you because I have just being offered a Check Airman position and after this flight, The hell with that, I'm not taking it."

 

[SEVEN]

One of the best zero to hero comments by one of these SJS kids I have flown with is " Wow that is the longest I have ever been in a cloud. I just tripled my IFR time!"

Those are funny stories. But whats not funny is that there are 50 clueless people riding along while those morons "gain" experience at 500 knots.
I guess we can all agree now that Pinnacle's hiring standards are a laughing stock and a joke at best. Always remember one thing. Keep the people you love off those airplanes.

:uzi: Pinnacle/Gulfstream/Jet U:smash:

 

[Dumb Pilot]

This is a trend gentlemen that regrettably is not exclusive of PCL. Low time pilots are being hired at most regionals these days. And the trend will get more wide spread, you will see before not too long low time "program" individuals hired at major carriers. It is happening now in other parts of the world. I used to transport European Airline Crews in position all over the Caribbean. LTU, Spanair, Air Europa. A-330 crews with the captains at 4000 total and the F/O's with 500 hours. Granted their selection and training programs are more intense on relation to what we have here in the States. But as the demand for crews increase in the next decade or so, you will see low time pilots not only at most regionals like you see now, but at the majors as well

 

[XJohXJ]

Northwest signed up with one of those programs recently, didn't they? One of the universities. Granted, they have plenty of checks in place, for CYA, until they see how it goes.

 

[Rook]

They all claim to be Northwest pilots.... What's up with that? I was going home one day after a long trip and this Pinnacle pilot told me "When I got hired by Northwest, I was flying the Saab, but I'm on the CRJ now." Everytime we make small talk with their pilots in the crew van they say they fly for Northwest and then the truth comes out when we ask what they fly.

Tools.

First off,

No. We don't all claim to be Northwest pilots. You were talking to one of our 'finest' I guess. And why lump all of us into that category just because you were talking to a jerk? I'm sure a lot of your Hitler youth compadres tell folks they fly for the Sky nAAzi's. I got a lot of buds at Eagle. I know you guys aren't all pretentious.

 

[Smarta$$]

They all claim to be Northwest pilots.... What's up with that? I was going home one day after a long trip and this Pinnacle pilot told me "When I got hired by Northwest, I was flying the Saab, but I'm on the CRJ now." Everytime we make small talk with their pilots in the crew van they say they fly for Northwest and then the truth comes out when we ask what they fly.

Tools.

No they don't all say that. Tool.

 

[Smarta$$]

Those are funny stories. But whats not funny is that there are 50 clueless people riding along while those morons "gain" experience at 500 knots.
I guess we can all agree now that Pinnacle's hiring standards are a laughing stock and a joke at best. Always remember one thing. Keep the people you love off those airplanes.

:uzi: Pinnacle/Gulfstream/Jet U:smash:

WOW, You really have a hardon for Pinnacle. How long did you fly there? There have been 300 hour pilots hired at Air Wisconsin, but I dont see you telling people not to fly for them. I do agree that 300 hundred hour pilots is INSANE. But there are at least seven jet regionals hiring at 600 are below and at least five jet operators hiring with 300tt. It is an industry problem not just pinnacle. I can say first hand that it is not as bad as you say, and improving.

Oh and buy the way.........
:uzi: Pinnacle management/Gulfstream/Jet U:smash:[/quote]

 

[doh]

Well, my point is moot! I got the call from Flexjet, so I won't have to find out if flying the frasca really helps me be a better CRJ pilot? Good luck to all the 600 hour wunderkinder out there flying for Northwest!

 

[Smarta$$]

Well, my point is moot! I got the call from Flexjet, so I won't have to find out if flying the frasca really helps me be a better CRJ pilot? Good luck to all the 600 hour wunderkinder out there flying for Northwest!

AND Expressjet, Air Wisconsin, ASA, Mesa, TSA, Goatjets and Eagle.

But you can pretend it is only a 9E problem.

 

[hesborn2fly]

Every industry has a bottom and Pinnacle is it for the Regionals.

Example: Waiting for a flight and these tools come up in their leather Jackets and Bellman Hats, sit down and start talking. My girlfriend asks them who they fly for, Answer: "Northwest". Got Northwest Airlines on the Roller Bag so must be true - right. Guess they attended Bill Clinton U in Arkansas, cause they left out the "Airlink" that goes along with the Northwest. She goes on with "What do you fly?" Without repeating all that followed - it was humorous and painful listening to it.

If the clothes make the man - then the hat must make the pilot!

You sir are an idiot, And it sounds like your girlfriend is a little too interested in other guys business. Now run on and finish your flight on Microsoft flight sim.

 

[CrownandCoke]

Those are funny stories. But whats not funny is that there are 50 clueless people riding along while those morons "gain" experience at 500 knots.
I guess we can all agree now that Pinnacle's hiring standards are a laughing stock and a joke at best. Always remember one thing. Keep the people you love off those airplanes.

:uzi: Pinnacle/Gulfstream/Jet U:smash:

dude, you are so bitter and I have never understood why. But I got hired with low time. I passed IOE in 30 hours, passed both the oral and the checkride, and kicked ass in ground school. As did a lot of low time guys in my class. You need to realize that pilots with low time, but good attitudes and good skills can fly a CRJ. It's not that hard.

Just out of curiosity, who fired you? imp:

 

[bertengineer]

I am turning down the offer from Pinnacle. Pinnacle's interview process is some what strange. they evaluate on a frasca sim, which has less than zero in common with the RJ. You are single pilot, which has less than zero to do with the RJ. So I do wonder how they determine who to hire. I would be curious about their wash out rate. Again, a very strange evaluation process which has nothing to do with flying the RJ. My qualification for saying this? I have 3400 PIC in the RJ.

If you didn't realize this...the sim evaluator wants to see if you can talk and act as a pilot while flying the sim..and he is usually takling to you while you are executing the hold or the approach. If you can walk and chew gum...even with 3400PIC in the CRJ, then you must have done good. It is a personality test to see if you get flustered..while flying..and talking to the CAPT that is in there. In real life...will he want to be in the plane with you for 4-5 days up to 5 legs a day?

That is why you do not have to do anything with the radio freq's when you are flying the FRASCA!

 

[TurboAWD]

I passed IOE in 30 hours, passed both the oral and the checkride, and kicked ass in ground school. As did a lot of low time guys in my class. You need to realize that pilots with low time, but good attitudes and good skills can fly a CRJ. It's not that hard.

Just out of curiosity, who fired you? imp:

Uh, while I do think there is a lot of BS ragging on 9E guys, let's just be clear:

None of what you said above makes you a good pilot, or a professional. You certainly may be (most likely, even). But the above doesn't mean jack. And while there are many pilots with lots of experience that don't know their head from their a**, experience is still valuable. Expecially when you only have 200-1000tt. I remember some Gulfstreamers talking about how they didn't want to "waste their time" flight instructing. Let me tell you, flight instructing is not a "waste of time". Not saying you need 2000 dual give, but 300 hours of it sure will give you a new perspective.

I'm just saying, don't get too cocky.

Turbo

 

[SEVEN]

WOW, You really have a hardon for Pinnacle. How long did you fly there? There have been 300 hour pilots hired at Air Wisconsin, but I dont see you telling people not to fly for them. I do agree that 300 hundred hour pilots is INSANE. But there are at least seven jet regionals hiring at 600 are below and at least five jet operators hiring with 300tt. It is an industry problem not just pinnacle. I can say first hand that it is not as bad as you say, and improving.

Oh and buy the way.........
:uzi: Pinnacle management/Gulfstream/Jet U:smash:

[/quote]

Alright I admit it. It's not the pilots fault if they get hired with 300 hours. Heck, I wish I could have flown a jet at 300 hours. But you're right, management is to blame for lowering the bar. ALPA has a big part as well.

 

[SEVEN]

dude, you are so bitter and I have never understood why. But I got hired with low time. I passed IOE in 30 hours, passed both the oral and the checkride, and kicked ass in ground school. As did a lot of low time guys in my class. You need to realize that pilots with low time, but good attitudes and good skills can fly a CRJ. It's not that hard.

Just out of curiosity, who fired you? imp:

Spongebob Jingle pants. Technically it was furloughed.

 

[CrownandCoke]

Let me tell you, flight instructing is not a "waste of time". Not saying you need 2000 dual give, but 300 hours of it sure will give you a new perspective.

How's 400 hours instructing? And about 450 PIC before I got hired there?

 

[TurboAWD]

Uh, fine. If you have 400 dual given, then you are not what would be considered a "low-time" new hire at 9e, IMO. That would require less than 5-600 TOTAL time.

Turbo

 

[CrownandCoke]

it's funny when I talk to the captains about the Gulfstream guys. They instantly get a little fire in their eyes, and if they were just laughing before, they have suddenly taken the crash ax to their temple.

Heard a Gulfstream guy stood up and walked out after yelling at Mefford in MEM

 

[doh]

AND Expressjet, Air Wisconsin, ASA, Mesa, TSA, Goatjets and Eagle.

But you can pretend it is only a 9E problem.

I should have put Notwest in quotation marks. I wasn't trying to imply that only 9E hires low time guys. I was making fun of the fact that so many more 9E pilots tell people they fly for mainline than I have ever heard from other feeder pilots. I don't think you can dispute that with a straight face!:beer:

 

[Lear70]

Well, my point is moot! I got the call from Flexjet, so I won't have to find out if flying the frasca really helps me be a better CRJ pilot? Good luck to all the 600 hour wunderkinder out there flying for Northwest!

I don't know which is worse, and I've flown at both carriers.

Flexjet WAS a GREAT place to work pre-1999 (before AA sold back their interest to Bombardier). Wasn't planning on leaving, but then it turned from a great place into a sh*t sandwich.

Tell Rick H I said to bite my bender... still haven't decided whether or not to sue him and Flexjet for slander, but that's a longer story.

Back on topic, Crown, I'm sure you're a capable F/O, but like Turbo said, don't get cocky. The WORST thing about the wunderkids was that they didn't know what they lacked in terms of general airmanship. The only time I ever had to take the airplane in 5 years at PCL was from GIA poster boy. Most of them came to be excellent pilots and later, Captains, but the majority of them should never, in my professional opinion, have ever been there at their low experience level.

I agree completely with one of the other posters: an ATP should be a basic, minimum requirement to be employed at a Part 121 air carrier, flag or supplemental. The problem isn't a shortage of pilots, the problem is a shortage of pilots willing to go to work for 14, 16, or 18k a year and the abundance of high school grads willing to fork out 50, 60, or 75k for the privilege of taking just that kind of job.

3701 is a perfect example of how bad things happen when you mix bad judgment (PIC) with extremely low time (SIC) who wasn't aware of the danger he was in until it was too late. I flew with him the month before it happened; great kid, terrible tragedy, all avoidable if he had been seasoned enough to put a stop to the stupidity.

Argue all you want, there's NO substitute, ZERO, ZILCH, NADA, no training whatsoever equivalent to EXPERIENCE.

 

[ASH]

CHQ/RAH requires 1500TT mins...if it makes anyone else feel better...Actually I think we changed insurance providers, and now it's a hard minimum.

 

[LASaab]

I think PFT is where the whole problem stemmed from.
Pilots are our own worst enemies.
This is why management knows that they can continue to bring the wages and work rules down.
Management knows they can get pilots no matter what they pay.

 

[MesabaDriver]

WOW, You really have a hardon for Pinnacle. How long did you fly there? There have been 300 hour pilots hired at Air Wisconsin, but I dont see you telling people not to fly for them. I do agree that 300 hundred hour pilots is INSANE. But there are at least seven jet regionals hiring at 600 are below and at least five jet operators hiring with 300tt. It is an industry problem not just pinnacle. I can say first hand that it is not as bad as you say, and improving.

Oh and buy the way.........
:uzi: Pinnacle management/Gulfstream/Jet U:smash:

[/QUOTE]

Just curious but who are the seven at 600 adn the 5 at 300?

 

[Smarta$$]

Just curious but who are the seven at 600 adn the 5 at 300?[/quote]

Sorry, bad wording. I include the five within the seven.

 

[turbinej]

Hey Rich how ya doing.

Most people can fly an an airplane. The point is working your way up the ranks and learning by flight instructing or flying freight. This process makes you a more proficient and better pilot. I'm an ex PNCL pilot and have flown with many low time guys from GIA or Embry-Riddle CAP program with my 5 year venture at PNCL. Yes, you guys can fly and have great attitude, etc.. A low time pilot lack one major thing is decison making skills. When something major goes wrong most panic or don't know what to do because the lack of experience to make decisions promtly and quickly. You all have not flown turboprop in the weather all day and got the crap scared out of you. Nor have you flight instructed and had a student put you in an unusual situation during landing or manuevers in the practice area. Anybody can read a checklist or QRH, but going beyond that you learn from previous flying experience working your way up the aviation ranks. I did not want to flight instruct, but it was the best learning experience to better futher me in my aviation career.