What's the skinny on hiring conferences?

[flx757]

As you probably recognized, it's the late, great Frank Zappa.

Yep. I was referencing a couple of my favorite Zappa songs in my post.

 

[Ty Webb]

Re: can whites attend or blacks only?

I thought the whole deal was for equality, not discrimination against whites. OBAP ... What a Freaking joke.[/i]


While I don't agree with preferential hiring, statements like this are wrong-headed. There's no reason to be disrespectful.

There was definitely a time and a place that this organization was needed . . . . I just think that at the airline level, that time has probably passed. . . . and anyting that appears to give one "group" an advantage in times like this tend to cause resentment.

 

[Wiskey Driver]

It amazes me that businesses can legally favor one applicant over another on the basis of race, rather than merit. I guess as long as white males are on the losing end, it isn't racism.

Ok, just remember that you wanted to go there not me, so allow me to enlighten the Ignorant. In 1976, approximately 80 black pilots were employed by the nation's major and commuter passenger airlines and freight carriers. By 1986 that number had risen to nearly 400, and today the total is estimated to be 674, including at least 14 black female pilots (thanks to Bessie Coleman). While the total increase is impressive on the surface, one must realize that there is a total of over 71,000 pilots working for these airlines. The struggle to expand African-American Pilot presence in the faces of unfair hiring/retention practices continues to be an uphill effort, and promises to become increasingly difficult as the generation of black pilots (hired in the 60's) has already begun to reach mandatory retirement age. Additionally, the military, which serves as a traditional source of airline pilots, especially black pilots , is rapidly being downsized.

Now I see your point it never has been fair has it??????

WD.

 

[Ty Webb]

WD, I think you are making my point . . .

The number of black pilots is so low because there aren't that many black pilots entering training. To say that there are only 600 out of 60,000 or whatever doesn't indicate discrimination at the employment level, it indicates a lack of student starts.

If there are 250,000 active pilots (just making this up) then there would have to be 40,000 black pilots, just to be representative of the black population. Then you could say that there should be 6000 or 7000 black pilots.

I would be interested to see how many black pilots there are that are qualified for an airline job, and of that number, how many are unable to find a pilot job . . . that number would be more relevant.

 

[Wiskey Driver]

Ty,

There are out there, in fact if you came to the convention you would see what I mean!!! Throughout the ages there have always been excuses as to why women and other minorities were not hired by airlines, but the simple fact of it doesn't change. I am all for fair hiring practices but at what point is it fair or better where do we begin?? A little off the subject but with the same point, in the 70's the Detroit police department was over 98% caucasian. The mayor at the time decided the only way to make it fair was to have a 50/50 mix so he put into place the hiring of more minority officers now I won't go into all of the details but my father who was hired prior to the big hiring push told me of the stories of how bad it was and how he was treated by his fellow officers. Now I am not saying that this is what should happen here but I again ask where do we begin??

WD.

 

[Swerpipe]

Some guys should relax...

The OBAP organization is an organization that provides an opportunity for networking and information. Here is a similar organization:

1)Or ganization Of Squadron Buddies for The Hiring of our Other Squadron Buddies


2)Organization of Daughters and Sons of Airlines Pilots So That They Can Be Hired as Soon as They Meet the Minimum Set of Qualifications

The work Black in OBAP may be offensive to some but being a pilot and having been to the airport so many times, you know what? I've never been flown by a black pilot yet in my whole life (What a coincidence!!!) And I have only spotted a couple here and there. As far as quotas, if they were any, you'd probably see more minorities flying and an organization like OBAP would loose purpose. Let me know which airlines have them.

BTW I am not black.

 

[secks]

Ok, just remember that you wanted to go there not me, so allow me to enlighten the Ignorant. In 1976, approximately 80 black pilots were employed by the nation's major and commuter passenger airlines and freight carriers. By 1986 that number had risen to nearly 400, and today the total is estimated to be 674, including at least 14 black female pilots (thanks to Bessie Coleman). While the total increase is impressive on the surface, one must realize that there is a total of over 71,000 pilots working for these airlines. The struggle to expand African-American Pilot presence in the faces of unfair hiring/retention practices continues to be an uphill effort, and promises to become increasingly difficult as the generation of black pilots (hired in the 60's) has already begun to reach mandatory retirement age. Additionally, the military, which serves as a traditional source of airline pilots, especially black pilots , is rapidly being downsized.

Now I see your point it never has been fair has it??????

WD.

The only evidence you have for "unfair" hiring practices is low numbers of black pilots flying for the airlines. Using your logic, anytime a racial "gap" exists in a labor market, "unfair" hiring practices are being employed. This logic is flawed. No one cries foul when sports teams draft practically all black teams, do they? However, when the head coaches are disproportionately white, people claim that there is a "problem". The only problem here is people not realizing that the Jim Crow South is long dead, and no longer serves as an excuse for not making yourself competitive with everyone else. The issue here is labor supply, not discrimination. I don't see many caucasian black history professors, do you? Must be racism!

Instead of discriminating against white, male pilots (which is exactly what this does), how about you shift your efforts to enticing black people to pursue a career in aviation? This is a much more positive step. Your "progressive" measures do nothing more than advance relatively inexperienced pilots through the ranks and cause resentment among white pilots who are trying to feed their families.

 

[secks]

Re: Some guys should relax...

The OBAP organization is an organization that provides an opportunity for networking and information. Here is a similar organization:

1)Or ganization Of Squadron Buddies for The Hiring of our Other Squadron Buddies


2)Organization of Daughters and Sons of Airlines Pilots So That They Can Be Hired as Soon as They Meet the Minimum Set of Qualifications

The work Black in OBAP may be offensive to some but being a pilot and having been to the airport so many times, you know what? I've never been flown by a black pilot yet in my whole life (What a coincidence!!!) And I have only spotted a couple here and there. As far as quotas, if they were any, you'd probably see more minorities flying and an organization like OBAP would loose purpose. Let me know which airlines have them.

BTW I am not black.

Wait a second. Are you actually suggesting that the racial gap in the airlines is caused by a "good ol' boy system"? At best, it's a factor, and a very minute one at that. What you ought to ask yourself is: How many black students have I seen in flight school?

 

[Swerpipe]

A Minute factor right

secks,

"At best, it's a factor, and a very minute one at that"

You know that in this business it is who you know and not what you know. So, if there a very few minorities to start with, who are they going to know? BTW, having squadron buddies and relatives in airlines or friends a "minute factor", if you think that you are misinformed IMHO. OBAP is about networking and mentoring minorites to get competitive so that they can be hired. It's not about hiring people that are underqualified. It is always easy to look the other way.

 

[secks]

Swerpipe:

Again, how many black students do you see enrolled in flight school? And how many black pilots do you see flying for the majors? See a connection?

I've got no problem with a networking program which places an emphasis on minorities. It's a free country. What I do have a problem with is hiring practices which turn away better qualified white applicants for having the wrong color of skin.

Besides, why can't a black guy network just like a white guy? Can't black guys develop connections with white guys? The only argument I can see here is having relatives in the aviation business gives an unfair advantage. This is true, but again, I don't think that the family factor is a big one. If it were a big factor, then the airlines should give an advantage to those who don't have family in the airlines, not just black guys. Think about all the white guys out there who don't have relatives in the field.

 

[Wiskey Driver]

Swerpipe:

Again, how many black students do you see enrolled in flight school? And how many black pilots do you see flying for the majors? See a connection?

I've got no problem with a networking program which places an emphasis on minorities. It's a free country. What I do have a problem with is hiring practices which turn away better qualified white applicants for having the wrong color of skin.

.

Like I said you should attend prior to commenting. You would then learn of the number of minorities out there. Your comments seem to the same as with many and when only WHITE males were being interviewed and hired you most likely didn't see the problem, you don't see the problems that exists in today's society.

Now as for you last sentence do you think that you are better qualified than I am based on your skin color??? I would almost bet not, but If you want to go this route then here you go over 3500tt 2800me 2000turbine ATP 4yr airline experience and one yr as 135turbine capt. Shall I continue???

Wake up my friend, it's an unfair world run by unfair people and practices and as long as we continue to cling to RACE being a dividing factor we will never heal the wounds of the past but most certainly destine to repeat them...

WD.

 

[secks]

Like I said you should attend prior to commenting. You would then learn of the number of minorities out there. Your comments seem to the same as with many and when only WHITE males were being interviewed and hired you most likely didn't see the problem, you don't see the problems that exists in today's society.

Well of course I'd see a lot of minorities at an OBAP convention. The issue is how many black students are training to become airline pilots compared to white students. Ask yourself why mostly white males were being interviewed? Did that have anything to do with the fact that the vast majority of people training to become airline pilots are white males?

I don't care what race is being interviewed/hired at the airlines, as long as the person with the best qualifications is hired.

Now as for you last sentence do you think that you are better qualified than I am based on your skin color??? I would almost bet not, but If you want to go this route then here you go over 3500tt 2800me 2000turbine ATP 4yr airline experience and one yr as 135turbine capt. Shall I continue???

Oh brother, I'm not going to engage in a pissing contest with you. Anyway, you didn't read my statement closely. I posed a hypothetical situation where a white pilot is better qualified than a black pilot.

Btw, you've beat me on the hours. I have none, and plan to make money in patent law, while building multi hours on the side. To each his own.

Wake up my friend, it's an unfair world run by unfair people and practices and as long as we continue to cling to RACE being a dividing factor we will never heal the wounds of the past but most certainly destine to repeat them...

WD.

Isn't racial preference using race as a dividing factor, which we agree is bad?

What's so unfair about the world of aviation? I assume you feel that the fact that minority pilots are underrepresented is unfair. Do you feel the same way about the lack of whites on professional sports teams? Or the lack of caucasian black history professors?

What barriers exist for minority pilots, in particular? Financial barriers? Well, I think we both know that there are plenty of starving white pilots out there, so that's not much of an argument. Networking barriers? Why would a minority pilot have difficulty developing friendships with whites? You can't possibly think that there are that many bigotted pilots out there. Family barriers? Yeah, this is about the only barrier I can think of. Of course, the best way to defeat this isn't to give blanket preferences to minorities, but to any applicant who does not have family in that particular airline.

 

[SFR]

Well cry me a river!!!! Who cares if 700 out of 70,000 are black, purple, etc. I don't give a sheet. Who cares about diversification anyway. I am a white male and consider myself a minority. Why, well how many other SFRs are out there? None! I am the only one with my name that lives in Georgia and was born in Ohio in 1976, that has a mother named Sandy, and father that lives in Alabama. If you can find someone to match all that besides me, then I am not a minority. Until then you bet I am, everyone is. I find it rediculous that people use skin/race to decide if a person is a minority or not. Why not use height while we are at it?

Thats it, no more people under 5'9". Sorry folks!!! You better for form OSAP (Organization of Short Airline pilots).

I can come up with thousands of examples.

Get real and get qualified. BTW I sent an application to a major that is hiring right now using a friends email/name (he is not involved with aviation)... I put minority...and sure enough.. the phone rang a month later.

I on the otherhand am still waiting.... little do they know they had a fake app. Would that stand up in court? Who knows....maybe I could make a campaign. Oh well....

Fly safe!!

 

[Wiskey Driver]

What barriers exist for minority pilots, in particular? Financial barriers? Well, I think we both know that there are plenty of starving white pilots out there, so that's not much of an argument. Networking barriers? Why would a minority pilot have difficulty developing friendships with whites? You can't possibly think that there are that many bigotted pilots out there. Family barriers? Yeah, this is about the only barrier I can think of. Of course, the best way to defeat this isn't to give blanket preferences to minorities, but to any applicant who does not have family in that particular airline.

There are plenty of barriers that you being on the outside just don't see. I don't say this to be mean but the truth remains I am on the inside looking around in here and you are outside looking in. Now for friendships I HELP ANY WHO ASK!! At my carrier I have helped many people, white, black, asian it really didn't matter to me what nationality they were they reached out for help and I was in a position to give it... As for biggoted pilots I can say that I never have come across one or atleast one who would admit it. You make mention of pro sports and the number of minority athletes but you seem to have left out baseball which is about 70/30 and the number of minority baseball players in the majors and minors is decreasing. Hockey well that's more like 99/1 but the over all fact is here if you are going to chose pro sports lets not leave out certain aspects that help to make your point LETS BE FAIR!!!!

WD.

 

[Wiskey Driver]

Get real and get qualified. BTW I sent an application to a major that is hiring right now using a friends email/name (he is not involved with aviation)... I put minority...and sure enough.. the phone rang a month later.

I on the otherhand am still waiting.... little do they know they had a fake app. Would that stand up in court? Who knows....maybe I could make a campaign. Oh well....

Fly safe!!

SFR,

I am not going to get into this with you for a couple of reasons 1st your argument doesn't make sense at all!!! I can't speak for the next guy but I sure as he11 couldn't follow your point.

2nd. and most important you are dishonest by your own admission. No you don't deserve the job based on the fact that you LIED ON YOUR APPLICATION!!! Why?? because the industry as a whole is flawed and YOU feel discriminated against!! Not a real good feeling is it???????????????

WD.

 

[secks]

There are plenty of barriers that you being on the outside just don't see. I don't say this to be mean but the truth remains I am on the inside looking around in here and you are outside looking in. Now for friendships I HELP ANY WHO ASK!! At my carrier I have helped many people, white, black, asian it really didn't matter to me what nationality they were they reached out for help and I was in a position to give it... As for biggoted pilots I can say that I never have come across one or atleast one who would admit it. You make mention of pro sports and the number of minority athletes but you seem to have left out baseball which is about 70/30 and the number of minority baseball players in the majors and minors is decreasing. Hockey well that's more like 99/1 but the over all fact is here if you are going to chose pro sports lets not leave out certain aspects that help to make your point LETS BE FAIR!!!!

WD.

Well, why don't you mention some of those barriers I don't see. I thought I covered the major barriers. You've got to make a case for why minority pilots deserve an advantage over white pilots.

I didn't need to bring up hockey or baseball to make my point. My point was that nobody cries "racism!" when white guys get the shaft (basketball, football, etc). Do you feel that racism/discrimination is the cause of hockey's racial gap? If you do, then with all due respect (and I mean that), there's probably no point in us arguing any further.

 

[SFR]

Whiskey Driver,

What are you talking about? Lied on the app? Duh, the one I lied on is the one that they invited for an interview!!!

Stupid...huh?

Well it proved my point that since I marked the minority box that my alter-ego/fake app got called for an interview. Oh, BTW the fake app also had one less type rating because I did not want them to associate it with me in the future. If that happened.

Facts:

I sent in an app. With my credentials, Never heard a thing yet!

Fact #2:

I sent in an app. With a friends email/fake name. I said I was a minority. Exact same flight time (within 50 hours, which the fake had less). One less type rating.

Fact#3: Fake app got an interview invite!

HAHA..... So you say that I should not get called because I lied on my app? Well, the one that I lied about got the call. My real app is all truth and I have not heard a thing.

Reality check....It happens....

 

[Redtailer]

hmmm

Just for comparison according to some on this board

AOPA - Anyone can join, professional organization.
Air Inc - Anyone can join, networking organization.
99's - Women can join, networking organization and outreach
OBAP - Objective is to get minorties hired on at lower times?

Uh, no.

WD has it right. Unless you know what the organization is about please don't say anything about it. It does nothing except to perpetuate falicies about a great organization.

I challenge anyone here who feels like OBAP is a racist organization or does nothing except to undercut white males in the hiring process, to come to the annual convention this week in Seattle. EVERYONE is welcome and is treated equally. It's just like Air Inc. except with a lot fewer pilots and more social events.

If you are not willing to at least do that then you really need not say anything until you know what it is you are talking about.

Fact is this, OBAP is about networking, mentoring, and helping aspiring pilots start an aviation career.

Lastly, just for the record there are several flight schools out there that are majority black programs. Several of which are at HBCU (Historically Black Colleges and University) schools. So there is a pipeline of training.

Later.

 

[Wiskey Driver]

RedTail,

Ever get the feeling that no matter what you say it always seems that it's falling on deaf ears. Thanks for the support and hope to see you in SEA.

I am out of this non constructive debate...

WD.

 

[Redtailer]

Oookkk

Gee, nice Ty.. I see you're resorting to your same OLD tactics: if you can't support your point just call a person names. Ahh, such brilliance.