whats the controversy?

[Tug Driver]

I decided to do my research paper on pilot fatigue, but I am not seeing the controversial side of this topic. Perhaps its because I don't fly 121/135. The regs say that you can only fly 8 hrs but be on duty up to 14 hrs. Then you have to have 8 hrs of rest in between, right? Are the airlines more or less strict than the FAA?

Could someone please help me understand why this provokes so much controversy?

Thanks

 

[wings421]

I don't fly 121, but I do 135. A two pilot crew can fly up to 10 hours in a 14 hour day (and still make rest for the next night). Thats a very long time (for me on the backside of the clock). By the 3rd or 4th night, you are worn out. Fatigue is a very big issue.

 

[FL990]

ok, you need to do a little more research, because your numbers are slightly incorrect. Part 135 and 121 are both different and have there own individual rules. Then, you usually (with 121) have contractual agreements that are more stringent than the FAR's, but they can never be less.

Here's just a general break down:

Part 135:

10 hrs minimum rest in a 24 hour period...(which would give you a max duty of 14hrs)

Whitlow interp. does not apply so the callout period is indefinite...(ie. your duty time doesn't start until you get a trip and thus can be on call 24/7...but you must have 13 days per calender quarter free from all duty and responsibility)

within the 14 hour period, you can fly 10hrs.

Note: there are expections to some of the above that should be looked up in the regs FAR 135.263 - FAR 135.273. Also, crew fatigue per the regs can be called on the part of the crew even if he/she has not flown to the above limits. This is very subjective and often creates problems with the company. In other words, they can't nock you for saying your tired...thats illegal...But you better have a good explanation why and it better not be because you were up all night doing "xyz". If however you have a legitimate company complaint, such as you have been flying 10 hours a day for 3 days straight(which is common at 135 carriers), you should be able to protect yourself with "crew fatigue."

Part 121: Domestic
This system is a little more complicated.

Basics are 9 hrs lookback of rest in a 24 hr period which can be reduced to 8 hrs.

16 hour duty period max and 8 hrs of flying.

Again there are some exceptions that should be noted (ie weather delays or holding that puts you over 8hrs flying...etc.) Then you have additional rest requirements. See FAR 121.470 and 121.471 for domestic...for international (Flag) see FAR 121.480 -121.493.

It should again be noted that most contracts further restrict the company in most situations. For example: part 121 state that a crewmember must have 1 24hr period off in a 7 day period so being off from 1300 fri to 1300 saturday would suffice. However at ASA our contract says that it must be a calender day...more restrictive.

Part 91: GA

There are no regulations limiting duty, flight, or rest times nor are there any regulating days off. It is not the same as flight instructors who are limited to 8hrs in a day. At XYZ corporation in there flight department, they can use you however they see fit and you are not protected by the FARS with respect to duty, flight, or rest time nor is your job protected by "crew fatigue". This is because these companies are not regulated by the FAA and therefore the Fed has no jurisdiction over there operation...(ie. if you get fired for saying you are too tired to fly, the FAA can't get your job back and furthermore (historically) cannot go in and fine the company because the company in this case does not hold an FAA certificate. Your just S.O.L.)


Hope this helps, if you read the FAR's and have any other clarification questions, feel free to ask and I will do my best to assist...Good Luck with the paper.

 

[Mongolikecandy]

Talk to some airline pilots to get their perspective. I have flown a couple 15+ hour days. With an airline schedule, the pressure to be on time and God forbid it is your last day of a trip, you are talking about a recipe for trouble. You are looking at the increased probability for poor decision making.

 

[PacoPollo]

Corpex crash last month. Long Day for the crew,IMC,Night,No AP. WX.

 

[Mel Sharples]

Perhaps its because I don't fly 121/135. The regs say that you can only fly 8 hrs but be on duty up to 14 hrs. Then you have to have 8 hrs of rest in between, right? Are the airlines more or less strict than the FAA?

Could someone please help me understand why this provokes so much controversy?

The problem is that you are like 99% of the population who thinks this isn't a bad deal. I don't mean that personally. This sounds great on paper but in practice this can be a bear.

Imagine this: You start your day at 0500. You fly 8 legs shooting 8 instrument approaches to minimums. In between, you deal with delays, gate changes, maintenance, disgruntled passengers, weather, etc. You are lucky if you have time to go to the bathroom, let alone time to eat.

Now when the day is done at 1900 your "rest" starts. During this period, you take a shuttle to the hotel (if it's on time) which can be up to 30 minutes in good weather, check in, change, go eat, go to bed because you have to be at the airport again at 0500. But wait... during this "rest" time, you also need to shower, get ready, eat breakfast (if you can), pack, take the shuttle back to the airport, etc.

So an 8-9 hour "rest" period may equal only 4-5 hours of sleep easily. And that's if the hotel isn't noisy from other people, the room temperature is adequate, and the bed is somewhat comfortable.

Also keep in mind that working a 15-hour day as a pilot requires a lot more focus and concetration than a 15-hour day in a cube hacking on a computer. I don't pretend that we have the toughest job, or that others don't work hard. But if you make a mistake as a pilot, the consequences are usually much higher than those for the average worker. Flying in bad weather takes a lot out of you no matter what plane you fly.

Now you might read this and think that I am a whiner. I am not, but I want the public to know that just because you have a 9-hour rest period, it does NOT mean you will necessarily be well rested.

The golden rule: REST DOES NOT EQUAL SLEEP.

I often wonder if the people that make these laws had to work 15 hour day after 15 hour day with 9 hours off in between, if we would have so much trouble getting the laws changed.

So for your paper, just put down that things that sound good on the surface don't always work out that way in the end.

 

[rumorhasit]

You might want to add 8hrs is block in to block out scheduled. By the time you get to the hotel you may get 6hrs of ACTUAL sleep time. I for one believe it should be actual time and not scheduled but it is all about money to the airlines...

 

[svcta]

yes, Virginia, you need your rest

I've done single pilot 135 in twin cessnas for almost a year now, and am back at it since I've been on furlough. Moan. For the finer points, single pilot can only operate 8 hours in a 14 duty period. And the 14 hour clock starts the minute you get to the airport in your crew base. Even if you're just hanging around flirting with the desk help. Two-person crews can do 10 hours in 14. All require 10 hours of rest between duty periods. Then there's the whole "heavy crew" thing which is a way for the company to get extra time out of a few guys, and I forget the details of that cause I never have to deal with it.
Under 135 there is no max duty time in anything but a calendar quarter and a year. So, unlike 121, they can work you all you want in a month, or until you just tell them you're too da#m tired to move. Which I've done before. I once flew just over 100 hours in a month, single-pilot, and in an airplane that can get pretty busy. Just told the dispatcher that I was finished for the month, which only had a couple of days left anyway, and they were on a weekend. Naturally I've pushed the 8 hour rule a couple of times, though. You're required to get more rest when you "accidentally" go over time, and my company always took care of me, always offered to let me get a hotel if I felt it was best, and never made me fly through weather I wasn't comfy with. That's unusual, so I try to reward them by getting the a/c where it's needed if I can.
I haven't kept up with it lately, but about a year ago there was talk about all 135 going 2-person crew. This may not be a pilot fatigue issue, but I could fly a lot more in a month if all I had to do was charts/radios OR fly; not all of those at the same time while dodging thunderstorms-in-the-descent-while-getting-vectored-and-trying-to-slow-down-and-get-set-up-for-a-VOR-apporach-to-minimums(can I get an amen).
This may be more of what you've already gotten, but take it from me(and the rest of the single-pilot freight dogs), REST IS GOOOOOOD.

 

[densoo]

OR this one:

Got back to Newark from a redeye and had a BOS turn added to my line. Captain too. So we've flown all night and now we're going to fly up to Boston and back having been up since 11pm the night before. How do think passengers would feel if they knew both guys up front had been up all night. But it was completely legal.

By the way, the captain said he "might" be fatigued and, without missing a beat, scheduling said, "Ok, go into crew rest and you're back on call at 4pm we'll have an assignment for you then." He said, well, never mind, I'll go to Boston.

OR this one:

Finished a redeye at 6am and thought I was good to commute home. Checked the computer and they had put me into rest, back on call at 4pm, pairing assigned at 6pm, day off rolled. Now remember, another duty period just started at 6pm. They could fly me all night again and be completely legal.

Looking at a single duty period cycle is of limited value. What you need to do is look at what can legally happen to you over a period of the max six days that the FAA says you can work. Early show, full duty day, min rest, short duty day, min rest, redeye, short rest, short duty day, min rest redeye, etc, etc. You can come up with some pretty grim scenarios and if the public knew this is what they might have drawn when they come to fly they would probably say, I think I'll take the next flight--or the next airline.