What would you do.......

[AirCanon04]

need some second opinions here guys....

Am currently new hire/on reserve with a usair exp. commuter out east and have been offered an SIC position with a company that has a lear 31&60.

Would you stick it out at the commuter or make the jump. I know I wont get as much flying at the lears as the commuter, but......

any thoughs either way are helpful.....thanks

 

[Flying Illini]

How is the pay/bennies and QOL? Do they have a set schedule? If not, can you live with being on call 24/7? What duties do they require the SIC to perform? Standard aircraft prep/cleanup before and after a flight or do you also have to act as the flight attendant, wash/stock the plane, etc?
There is a lot to consider. Good luck.

 

[Mr. Irrelevant]

If it's a reputable place the pay should be a hell of a lot better. I bet close to double. I'd go with the Lears but if you're under 30 you can probably ride out the commuter unless they lose the flying due to a U.S. Airways liquidation this year. Could find yourself on furlough at least temporarily if that happens. All conjecture though.

Mr. I.

 

[Guitar Guy]

Another item to consider is the likelihood of getting qualified as a PIC at the Lear operation. Jumping ship without the possibility of logging some all-important turbine PIC may not be a great deal unless you are worried about being unemployed and you view the Lear operator as a stop-gap measure.

I know USAir is in a shaky position but how is your carrier positioned? If you think your carrier could withstand loss of USAir flying and you are somewhat close to upgrade at this time, it might be something to consider to stay on and see what unfolds.

Best wishes to you as you consider your options.

 

[pooter]

go fly the lear and try to get pic time.with painfully long upgrade times at most regionals it takes forever to get at least 1000 pic.this seems to be what every one wants now. i know of numerous people including myself that bypassed the regional uniform to fly junked out cargo lears for a few years.most of us moved straight to heavy equipment without doin the rj thing.flying 135 is the best experience you can get ,don't be in such a hurry to get to the big stuff,relax ,enjoy yourself and learn as much as you can.rj pilots are a dime a dozen.

 

[d.fitz]

Maybe I am mistaken, but the PIC req's at SWA and Airtranrequire,specifically, PIC in a part 121 operation. Some may have got inwithout that, but that is not the norm.

Having said that, things change. If you learn about the lear job and itseems better, you may be able to move into a 'heavy' equipment job downthe road (7 to 10 years). Which may be the same length of time it takesgoing through some regionals....

Good Luck!

 

[English]

Maybe I am mistaken, but the PIC req's at SWA and Airtranrequire,specifically, PIC in a part 121 operation.

You are mistaken. SWA does not require 121 PIC, only turbine PIC. It can be 121, 135, 91 or military.

 

[V2plus25]

For SWA it can even be single-engine PIC time... which worked for me blowing a prop oil seal in the 227.

Airtran does specify 121 PIC time. Frontier doesn't say jet is required, just preferred.

 

[eddie]

Think about QOL. Sitting reserve sucks...not having a day without your pager for 2 months is worse. imoPIC time is important, make sure the 135 company upgrades via seniority or you could get screwed there too.

 

[mamba20]

"rj pilots are a dime a dozen."

Pooter, you are an idiot. You think RJ pilots are a dime a dozen? So are "juked out" Lear pilots. RJ's are going to be the keystone of domestic airline flying in the next 10 years, so enjoy your gas guzzeling MD-88 while you still can!

 

[dogg]

"rj pilots are a dime a dozen."

Pooter, you are an idiot. You think RJ pilots are a dime a dozen? So are "juked out" Lear pilots. RJ's are going to be the keystone of domestic airline flying in the next 10 years, so enjoy your gas guzzeling MD-88 while you still can!

Actually it would be you pooter.

There will be more RJ's in the desert in five years than old mainliners.....The RJ is a product of misguided mgmnt. at the big legacy carriers....market share it turns out is not worth the cash drain of an RJ. Nether United or UsAir will survive with the current RJ noose that they are wearing and that comes from many, many articles by the financial types... Midway first and now Independance are showing that you can not run a real airline with RJ's....And from friends that work there, Horizon is hoping to remove their Rj's from airline service and place them in fee-for-departure work as they are a huge cash drain on their otherwise profitable airline.......And it looks like Delta is going to get rid of Comair and ASA as they can no longer afford the cash drain...

 

[typhoonpilot]

A little off the original subject of the thread, but I would have to make a third to what pooter said. To be precise though, it is ERJ and CRJ pilots that are a dime a dozen. Those flying the newer EMB-170/175/190/195 are on an aircraft that will be around for some time to come.

If you look at three of the most profitable airlines in the world; Cathay, Singapore, and Emirates not only will you not see any RJs, you won't see any narrow body equipment. All three of those carriers have only large widebody aircraft.

To get back to the original question, I would say to go where you can get 1000 PIC the fastest.


TP

 

[Lear70]

A little off the original subject of the thread, but I would have to make a third to what pooter said. To be precise though, it is ERJ and CRJ pilots that are a dime a dozen. Those flying the newer EMB-170/175/190/195 are on an aircraft that will be around for some time to come.

It's both. The old joke of, "If you shake a tree, a bunch of Lear pilots looking for work fall out" has been modified to include RJ drivers. Neither offers much better job security in the form of high job skill demand.

If you look at three of the most profitable airlines in the world; Cathay, Singapore, and Emirates not only will you not see any RJs, you won't see any narrow body equipment. All three of those carriers have only large widebody aircraft.

Apples and Oranges. You can't compaire those airlines to domestic U.S. carriers, their mission profile is completely different.

To get back to the original question, I would say to go where you can get 1000 PIC the fastest. TP

Absolutely! Just be careful about the type of 135 operator out there; you have to do the research, some 135 carriers are not very pleasant to work for. Been there, done that. Had the option to go back as a Lear 60 CA for about a 50% pay raise over my current regional salary and turned it down because of their reputation.

There will be more RJ's in the desert in five years than old mainliners.....The RJ is a product of misguided mgmnt. at the big legacy carriers....market share it turns out is not worth the cash drain of an RJ. Nether United or UsAir will survive with the current RJ noose that they are wearing and that comes from many, many articles by the financial types...

What the h*ll are you smoking? More RJ's in the desert? Have you ever been to one of the bone yards? There's THOUSANDS of old mainline hulls out there!! Additionally, for every article from a "financial type" that backs your theory, there's another that states the exact opposite. Obviously those "financial types" can't get it right either...

Midway first and now Independance are showing that you can not run a real airline with RJ's....And from friends that work there, Horizon is hoping to remove their Rj's from airline service and place them in fee-for-departure work as they are a huge cash drain on their otherwise profitable airline.......And it looks like Delta is going to get rid of Comair and ASA as they can no longer afford the cash drain...

Again, what are you smoking?! First, you are right about ONLY one thing; you can't run a real airlines with RJ's ALONE. The RJ was never designed to be a replacement for an entire fleet, it was designed to be a feed aircraft. And on that basis, the airlines running them on a Fee-Per Departure (Northwest is one), are operating them profitably; Northwest's own financials show that Pinnacle is the ONLY part of the airline that is producing a PROFIT for them.

And Delta get rid of Comair and ASA? Not in this decade. Put down the pipe and back slooowwwly away.

 

[Bandit60]

Did I miss something? I didn't see that AirCannon mentioned that the job was a 135 operator. I have many friends that fly for regionals and major airlines and they all make the same or less then I do as a corporate pilot. As far as QOL, well I get more time off then them. I'm at home with my family all but maybe 4 nights a month. The way the airline industry is heading at this point I would give good consideration to going to a good corporate.

 

[dogg]

Again, what are you smoking?! First, you are right about ONLY one thing; you can't run a real airlines with RJ's ALONE. The RJ was never designed to be a replacement for an entire fleet, it was designed to be a feed aircraft. And on that basis, the airlines running them on a Fee-Per Departure (Northwest is one), are operating them profitably; Northwest's own financials show that Pinnacle is the ONLY part of the airline that is producing a PROFIT for them.

And Delta get rid of Comair and ASA? Not in this decade. Put down the pipe and back slooowwwly away.

You are mistaking Pinnacles profits for profits at mainline..... I grant you that all fee-for-depature companies are profitable.....That is because they are not in the airline business....They are in the contract lift business and are niceley insulated from the competition in the airline business. Pinnacle, Comair, Skywest and the rest could care less if fare wars and such are making life in the airline business miserable and profits unlikely....The only competition they have is with each other and what they are willing to provide lift for....Apples and oranges my friend... So for you and everyone else who claim that the contract lift guys are making a profit for their Sugar Daddy owners it is called "robbing peter to pay paul".......And Comair and ASA being sold in this decade...more like by this time next year....There are plenty of lift providers out there to contract with and it just is not worth owning your own anymore....One more thing, I am not calling to question the quality of operation or professionalism or anything else at the lift providers. They are all well run companies with great people. They just don't happen to be in the "airline" business anymore.

I think that that the Alaska Air Group may have it figured out after reading some of their plans...It appears that they run Alaska Airlines and Horizon Air as two completeley separate companies.....As in you can still buy a ticket on Horizon Air.....but they are taking their unprofitable CRJ-700's and farming them out to other airlines doing fee-for-departure work so that they make Horizon money and keeping the profitable dash- 8's in their own route structure...........

 

[mamba20]

Hey dogg, Lear60 is right. Its the same at PSA. They have made money every quarter except the 4th quarter after 9/11 (proof in the USAirways website). The last 2 years PSA has moved to a jet only airline and guess what? Still making a profit.

 

[typhoonpilot]

Hey dogg, Lear60 is right. Its the same at PSA. They have made money every quarter except the 4th quarter after 9/11 (proof in the USAirways website). The last 2 years PSA has moved to a jet only airline and guess what? Still making a profit.

You are not listening. Dogg has it right. They make a profit because they charge a fee for departure. They could care less how many people are on the aircraft as they still get a minimum amount of money from the mainline. If you took that away and had them charging a reasonable fare for their service the operating economics of the RJ would come to light. At over 15 cents per ASM they are not economical. Unfortunately Indy Air is proving that right now. No airline that is forced to charge the low fares that are the norm in the U.S. can be profitable with RJs.

TP

 

[Lear70]

You are mistaking Pinnacles profits for profits at mainline.....

No. I'm not. Do you read the quarterly NWA reports? I didn't think so. I do. We make money for NORTHWEST. Don't ASSume to tell me what I am mistaking anything for, it's quite presumptuous, not to mention inaccurate.

And Comair and ASA being sold in this decade...more like by this time next year....There are plenty of lift providers out there to contract with and it just is not worth owning your own anymore....

Wow. I guess you must be RICH on the stock profits you make from being able to that accurately predict major airline business decisions.

If you're talking about Delta spinning them off into an IPO but maintaining controlling interest, I might agree with you. Otherwise, I think your barking up the wrong tree, but like you, it's just my opinion.

At over 15 cents per ASM they are not economical. Unfortunately Indy Air is proving that right now.

True. But at PCL our CASM is closer to 12 cents per ASM, we have one of the lowest Fee-Per-Departure rates in the industry, and Northwest makes money off us which is why they keep sending the RJ deliveries to us instead of ramping up someone else to take them. Not all the regionals have as high a CASM as FLYI.