What would you do?

[Badger]

whats the hurry

Get a real college education at a 4 year university or state school in a business/nursing/pharmacy...something OTHER than aviation. This distance learning thing is kind of hokey sounding, if you're interviewing for a position outside aviation which is very likely in your career. Hope for the best, prepare for the worst. Besides, why would you throw the whole college experience away? girls, drinking, friendships, connections.

Someone posted a writeup from the Denver Post about a UAL guy that got furloughed, 8 years min. to kill if he ever gets called back. No decent education (had aviation degree) no skills, 2 kids, a wife. If you search, read it. Unfortunate that it happens but a fact of the industry.

my .02

 

[Badger]

And about these academies...

All of them are grossly overpriced.

They are inflexible and probably not concerned with the individual.

What value do they add to the certificates and ratings achieved?

You cannot go from PVT->MEI in 90 days (or whatever they promise), and be a competent pilot or instructor.

Look at it this way...

Find an FBO, pay as you go (you can finish ratings in a timely manner).

BUT...find an FBO that operates twins in a 135 operation (freight or passenger)

You will be appreciated, they will want to help you move on, you will save thousands of dollars. They will know you as an individual.

Why end up 30K in the hole, it'll be many years before you can afford to pay anything on the loan. (I can't even believe someone underwrites these things on pilot training, I'm sure there must be a guarantor and it's probably prime +5% min)

These academies are a bunch of greedy, BS factories as proven by their ads in the flying magazines, why the He## would you consider handing someone like that 60K?

Good luck regardless, we've all got opinions.

 

[ChadCRJ]

Academies/FBO's

Badger,

I see what your saying about the FBO route. Yes its cheaper but yet your going to be there for a loonnng time. The academies atleast have some what of a connection to regionals. I have a couple of friends that have gone through academies and are now at regional airlines. One guy I talk to just got picked up this year by Pinnacle only 19yrs of age. The other friend of mine was 20 an picked up by Comair. I don't see a lot of FBO guys doing that with the amount of time these guys had. They typically end up having to instruct a lot longer then flying freight or 135 charter bc they can't get an interview with a regional. Thats the way I see it..

Chad

 

[Badger]

fastracking.

I guess it'd be nice if people moving into the regionals were regarded for experience and quality. It's not your fault but it's really sad to see them selling the seats away. Paying some guy 19K/yr after he sunk 60K into a "program" or 8K into a "CRM" course. I guess it's a reality of the industry.

The regionals also know that those that paid that kind of cash are not the types that will bicker about being paid squat the rest of their careers (which may very well end at the regionals).

Good luck in whatever you choose. Just watch your back the whole way.

PS. And who told you you'd be at an FBO a long time? (these schools with the "connection$" ?). Most I know that decided to goto a regional spent 1 yr instructing and 1 yr with charter or something of the like. It's more now no doubt but it takes at least that to become a respectable pilot and not just be a liability up front. Like I said before, you're missing all the fun without flying boxes or even instructing. Flying the RJ between city pairs living in a rathole with 10 others in a slum apt. for 19K/yr...is that success?

 

[jergar999]

I went to ATP. Like any other school, your instructor will be the single most important factor in your success and in enjoying the experience (besides yourself). I had a great one, was very lucky in that respect. The reason I chose ATP was simple, I was ready to fly. FBOs do a great job at an often better price, but quite simply ATP will get you done in time, mostly in a twin. No FBO I have found will do this. It took my over a year to do my private at my local FBO with weather delays, maintenance issues, scheduling and other miscellaneous problems. It took ATP 3 months to do everything else. I was sure of what I wanted to do beyond a shadow of a doubt, I had studied everything I could, bottom line is I was motivated, and it made ATP a great experience. They wanted me in the plane as much as I wanted to be in it, which was a huge contrast to what I was used to FBO flying. You do some sim time, which doesn't really count for anything, but it can be a great learning tool. All in all, I got done, got a job, and have a lower loan payment than if I had spent many months or even years somewhere else. As for experience, flying a Seminole from Sacramento, CA to Jacksonville, FL then around Florida, to Phoenix, and tons of other places is great experience. More than I think you can learn practicing profiles in the local pattern many times in a row. With the schedule you are on at ATP, you get used to having limited time to do everything, it forces you to figure things out and make decisions and put it all into practice. They dispatch you from place to place across the country, all different places with different approaches, airports, and challenges. I really enjoyed every minute of it, and came out of the program ready to face what came. The other nice thing is that you meet a lot of people doing their ATP. Invite some of them to ride backseat when you're flying, help them with explaining the aircraft to prepare them for their checkride - in other words, network! All in all I would recommend ATP if you think you are ready to really do it. Put some effort into it, and you will get everything done within the specified time, at the specified rate. If I was promised something, I got it.

 

[Badger]

I'll have to 2nd ATP.

if you're going for the big school/speed aspect. I'll have to agree that ATP is a good choice. I know many people that have picked up a rating or two over there (ME, MEI, ATP mostly), all were very satisfied with the program. It's a great place to make connections too as many ATP'ers are out there before you that will help if you give them the chance. It sounds like they go out of there way to give you true experience rather than avoid risk to protect their insurance policy.

good luck, let us know.

 

[uscpilot]

For those of you contemplating getting an aviation degree I must ask: Why?
If you find it interesting then great, do it.
If you think you need it to get hired then someone is blowing smoke up your a$$. Look at the requirements for pilots out there. You will be hard pressed to find any that require or even prefer an aviation degree. The only one that comes to mind is ACA. I seem to remember looking at their job site a while back and they had reduced time requirements if you have an aviation degree. In aviation the only degree that they care about is the one you have, be it history, engineering, or aviation. So long as it is at least four years, they DO NOT CARE.
With reguards to Pan Am or ATP, you are nuts to spend more money and get less multi time. The people conduciting the interviews will be looking at your total and multi time, and will care less where you did your inital training (unless its military). You will become a proficient pilot as a CFI, no matter if you trained at an FBO or at one of the "grab your ankles" academies.
As far as distance learing, go watch Animal House, or Road Trip and tell me you want to miss out on that lifestyle.
If I could do it over again, I would have gone to ATP or Ari Ben, banged it out over a summer, and then instructed while in college. I imagine that the "Im a pilot" pick up line works better in college. After all most of your competition works at Starbucks, or maybe a bookstore, assuming that they even have a job.
Good Luck at Pan Am, dont drop the soap.

 

[ChadCRJ]

ATP vs. Panam

With reguards to Pan Am or ATP, you are nuts to spend more money and get less multi time.

I feel that the knowledge aspect of flying is just as important as the flying part. Going to ATP yes is a lot cheaper.. But I've heard a lot of negatives from people I have talked to lately an yes, even former students. Yea you get a lot of multi an all that good stuff... but for real. Do you think you'll get the same education in 90 days... compared to what you would get attending Panam, FSI, or DCA? I doubt it.

Also, the only way your going to end up with more multi is if you actually get hired on by ATP to instruct. An from talking to people there, it doesn't seem to be a lot of that going on. I guess thats due to the program an the stat of the industry. I've been told 50 students or so throughout the U.S. are currently in the career pilot program at a time. The course is only 90 days... so basically.. theres 200 students take or give some... that complete the course each year. With instructors having to instruct for a year or so to build time I can see why a lot of students wouldn't be getting picked up there. There is just no openings...

Wheres compared to Panam, I was told by a former instructor that as long as you complete the course and don't have any black marks.. you'll get picked up. Yea, I can see it might be slow for you at first but atleast you have a job that within time will pick up with more and more students.

Just how I see things..

 

[uscpilot]

This is not intended as slam on guys with low time. But it seems, with few exceptions, that most of the people that support the flight academies on this forum are low time, and conciquently (in my opinion) uniformed. I realize how easy it is to get tricked into handing over an insane amount of cash for all your initial ratings. All these academies have very slick marketing departments, they prey on the uninformed. The websites are very professional with pictures of students preflighting 172's while wearing pilot uniforms. Their sales staff will denigrate other schools or other training routes (FBO's). You may not believe me, but 2-3 years and 35000 dollars (or in current dollars 50 to 60 thousand) later and you will.
Look if you take the 50 to 60 thousand dollar route you will take a check ride with the FAA for your initial CFI. Another student who spent half what you spent on training will take and pass the same check ride. What did the extra 20000 get you? Oh yeah airconditioning, and a garmen 430, money well spent.
The best advice anyone can give (I know everything ) is to take a friend, or family member who is an experienced pilot and ask them to go the flight school with you. If they sign off on the 50000 dollar school then they are not your friend . Just kidding. But try to get their honest opinion of both the expensive and less expensive routes. If you do not have this luxury then educate your self as best you can with the FAR's and with what both schools have to offer so that you can ask the questions that will help you the most.
Good Luck All

 

[ChadCRJ]

USCpilot,

I see what your saying.. but it kinda relates back to what I said earlier. I want to beable to land a CFI job after I get done with the academy. And from talking to former Panam CFI's... they are getting a lot more multi time and around 80 hours a month with pretty good pay(As if there is a such thing for a CFI). Something you just don't see a lot of at FBO's.

The best advice anyone can give (I know everything ) is to take a friend, or family member who is an experienced pilot and ask them to go the flight school with you.

Funny you say that... I currently have two friends that fly for regionals. One of them recommend Panam and thought very differently about ATP. His exact words, "Your goal is to make it to an airline... not to complete your training in 90 days." He is a very close friend an has been sucessful- 3rd year at Comair and was hired on at 20.

 

[uscpilot]

Chad,
First off I am not an advocate of ATP. I should have said that at the outset. My argument was framed around your choosing between ATP or the more expensive academies. To me ATP is the lesser of two evils.I would not choose either, nor would I repeat my American Flyers mistake (I breathed a sigh of relief when you did not mention that place).
Despite my tone I do not claim to know everything. I respect your airline friends opinion, I just dont agree with them. That may be due to the fact that I fly freight, and did not go to Pan Am. However alot of the pilots here at Airnet did go to Pan Am. Which is just my point, you do not need to spend an insane amount of money (greater than 40000) to get a job in this industry.
I also dont see the point in spending an extra 20 grand just so you will likely get hired by the school that trained you. I realize that the economy is in the toilet right now, and smaller flight schools are especially dependent on a strong economy. But things will improve, if you dont think that then you should reconsider this whole career path. I mean if you are not an optomist these days then I dont see how you can face each morning without alot of beer.
At the risk of being repetitive check out Ari Ben Aviator (all multi, and no sim). I have nothing to gain financially by recomending them. My brother is in a similar situation as you he is college age and is taking a couple semesters off (notice much more than the 90 day joke at ATP) to get all his ratings. He can then instruct part time over the next two years while he finishes his degree. Now this may not be for everyone, though I cant imagine why. Have a true college experience, and get paid (not much) to fly. There are also women at college. Have you seen what Vero Beach has to offer, its God's waiting room down there. My brother tells me there are no women, its like being in prison (reference my "dont drop the soap").
Any way got to go, Good Luck

 

[T/SF34/A]

Whats with the students wearing uniforms at PanAm? Are they included in the $50,000.00?

Just be smart when deciding on where to go. The cheaper route may be the best way to go. (Just my opinion.) You can't defer your loans for too long after you complete your training. When you're a first year FO in that RJ you want to be flying you will be kicking yourself every month when it comes time to pay that bill. I can almost guarentee that your monthly loan payment for that much dough will be at least 1/3 of your pay, if not more.

 

[ChadCRJ]

USCPilot,

Do you know where your brother is going to get his training? I've visited vero beach and ft. pierce... but what are the hot spots down there around that area? South to West Palm?

Chad

 

[uscpilot]

Chad,
He is going to Ari Ben at Ft Pierce. All beech duchesses(sp?). He says the night life there sucks. Nobody his age. Its like they ship any one over 70 out of NYC and send them down there. He claims that the majority of the places there cater to either the red neck or geriatric (sp?) segments of the population with no middle ground. And when a girl walks into a bar it doesnt matter if she is hot or not, the horney pilots are all over her. They usually go to West Palm on the weekends. He is in the time building phase now for his commercial so he gets to fly to the keys, pretty cool.
Fly Safe

 

[ChadCRJ]

Ari Ben

Yea, I've heard those duchess they operate have had sometime put on them... Does he know if their are any plans of Ari getting any new twins in the near future?

 

[uscpilot]

there are rumors of pipers, but if that happens then the price will go up. The rumor goes on that they are trying to get more beeches.

 

[HAZ-MAT]

ahhh yes, the florida night life.. yep, if you are at any of those flight schools down there... you go out, and they'll be 1 girl and 15 guys all trying to grind on her at the same time... no lets do a spoof of "the night at the Roxbury"... 3 guys wearing their 4 bars on their shoulders, all knocking their heads...

 

[uscpilot]

Its funny how the hot chick rating system is relative. You can have an every day 5, but throw her into aviation and she's a 10. FA's are exempt. That is the situation in the Vero-Ft.Peirce area. How disappoiting it must be for all these college age guys. They think "all right I get to fly and chase tail for the next however many months". They think its going to be MTV beach house at the airport. Oh well I guess you get to know your hand quite well.

 

[BeachBum]

Yea, I've heard those duchess they operate have had sometime put on them... Does he know if their are any plans of Ari getting any new twins in the near future?

When choosing where you are going to train, don't place much value on the age of the planes. If they have wings and working engines, then the planes are fine. When you fly new planes, you pay a lot more for them and get nothing in return. Yeah, it's great to have some huge color GPS 8000 in you trainer, but what does it teach you. Nothing. The GPS is a crutch. You'll learn a lot more training in a plane with a VOR or two and DME if you're lucky. In the meantime, you'll save a ton of money flying a plane that was built 20 or 30 years ago but is still airworthy.

What do I think you should do? You're just out of high school. Go to college and get your ratings at a local Mom and Pop FBO. You'll save money, get to be a college student, get your ratings, and probably be in a better situation when you're all done. But that's just my opinion.

 

[stillaboo]

I 2nd BeachBum

Local FBO's usually will hire you on if you get all your rateings from them. Factory academies just graduate too many to be able to do this.

I would NEVER give up my college years! These are the best years of your life, and to waste them flying all the time is so foolish. When you're sitting in the cockpit of your RJ or 73, you will never say to yourself, 'man, I am SO glad I spent the best years of my life in a 'sausage-fest' pilot factory and got my degree through the mail.'

Just chill out some. The airplanes aren't going anywhere. Relax and get a non-aviation degree (the average pilot is furloughed 2 times in a career, and your 'aviation science' degree qualifies you as waiter, dishwasher, or retail salesman. I'd guess 'Home Depot' employs as many pilots as JetBlue). 18 years old, and you're already in a rush to do what, sit in a seat and monitor an auto-pilot and EFIS display for the next 40 years?

Get a 4 year, and get your rateings part time while you enjoy life a bit at a local FBO with 135 charter ops. Train more agressively in the summers, and you'll easily finish college at 22 with your CFI, a 4 year, and a job at the FBO you got your rateings at instructing part time, and flying King Airs part time. Apply to a regional, and you'll be in the right seat of a RJ or large prop at 24-25 years old. Majors by 32-35, and spend the next 25 years accumulating seniority and talking about the days when you used to go fly 172's around the patch and chase tail with your 'I'm a pilot' pick-up line at the college bars and chillin' on the deck with your buds trying to polish off a keg. At 18, you haven't even lived yet! You are only fooling yourself if you think you should make a career decision for the next 42 years based on what you think you want to do now at 18.

The route I took was different, and it was the best route for me. I have no regrets. I have my MBA to fall back on, never had to get my CFI, and got on to a 121 carrier at 25.

I think anyone who limits themselves to the FL training academies is making a big mistake. If you know you want avaition at 18, go to a school like UND or something, a place where you can get the college experience AND get flight training too. There is SO much more to life than aviation, and no 18 year old can know what they want without ever experiencing anything besides highschool. You're asking to burn-out, plain and simple.

-Boo!