What would it take to fix this industry?

[John C. Holmes]

What would it take to fix this industry?


Seems like the industry I wanted to be a part of growing up packed it's $hit up and left. Any thoughts?

 

[FurloughedAgain]

Fix it for whome?

Management and the stockholders? or Labor?

Because there is no solution that will improve the industry for both.

 

[av8er2]

Get a mgt. that is like Southwest or similar to companies outside of the airlines who realize that the employee is what really makes a company great.

Without happy workers who are the backbone of the company you will not have happy passengers and an efficient safe operation.

But why would the best and the brightest come to a company like ASA when they can work for a company that has much larger profit margins and a better future unlike the airlines.

The arilines are really going down the toliet fast. I feel the safety record is next. At the pay they are wanting they will not get the best pilots and the best and brightest are currently being encouraged to not learn to fly.

If I had a kid wanting to fly now I would not let him or her. I would make them get an education outside of aviation. Right now is a great opportunity for the less qualified to become an airline pilot.

 

[Midnight Flyer]

What would it take to fix this industry.

Easy. Stop taking airline pilot jobs that only pay 20,000 per year.
At least that would be a start.

Fix it for whome?
Management and the stockholders? or Labor?
Because there is no solution that will improve the industry for both.

Fix it for the pilots, of course, silly. Screw mgmt. I'd like to show those beancounters who really runs these airlines..and it ain't mgmt.

Get a mgt. that is like Southwest or similar to companies outside of the airlines who realize that the employee is what really makes a company great.

Without happy workers who are the backbone of the company you will not have happy passengers and an efficient safe operation.

But why would the best and the brightest come to a company like ASA when they can work for a company that has much larger profit margins and a better future unlike the airlines.

The arilines are really going down the toliet fast. I feel the safety record is next. At the pay they are wanting they will not get the best pilots and the best and brightest are currently being encouraged to not learn to fly.

If I had a kid wanting to fly now I would not let him or her. I would make them get an education outside of aviation. Right now is a great opportunity for the less qualified to become an airline pilot.

Oh I totally agree. I've already discouraged my children from aviation (as a profession).
Southwest's mgmt is one in a million. The passengers can tell when the employees are happy.
Ever fly on ASA? Geeze, from the monotone drab tone of the pilots voice over the PA during flight proves how miserable the employees are. I just wish the people over there would simply quit instead of waiting around year after year after year for a better contract. I quit ASA when I'd had enough. I didn't even have a new flying job to go to. I guess some pilots aren't that upset over making 20,000/year and being treated like dirt. I sure wasn't willing to just settle.

 

[Fly2Scuba]

Re-regulation or else the supply/demand structure needs to truly be one. Problem is struggling airlines are allowed to struggle at a much lower cost basis due to existing bankruptcy laws (even after the new changes occurred this year), which then forces all other airlines to lower their costs. Also keeps capacity in the industry furthering cutthroat competition where it's difficult to actually cut an airline to lower supply. Blame also General Electric and other creditors along with aircraft manufactures who don't want to see any airline cease and desist.

Further, specific to airlines, pilots need to actually strike and walk away from a bad deal. If not that choice, at least recogonize a bad deal and do whatever it takes to let the shareholders of that airline know that their airline is a terrible investment due to unhappy employees. Unhappy employees should theoretically produce a bad service. Hint, hint Mesa.

Finally, the masses of perspective pilots need to understand that flying is not the ultimate dream job (lower supply of pilots). The only ones who feel that way generally are guys that worked hard in a different career, built up their financal portfolios and then scooted over to the regional airlines after age 30 or so with the ability to afford to live easily off the low pathetic wages paid out. Even then, the glory of the career is likely to ware out over time. These aviation universities and other flight schools that are selling this dream to young adults fail to mention how a $100,000 or even $50,000 is an extremely large amount to pay back in loans when this career pays so little. Also, the days away from home, working holidays many times completely away from home, low pay and the vast challenges of achieving better contract conditions, and many other stresses of the career are conviently left out of the many, many deceptive ads in Flying magazine and the likes.

 

[miles otoole]

Get a mgt. that is like Southwest or similar to companies outside of the airlines who realize that the employee is what really makes a company great.

Not sure it's that easy. Do you think if the entire management team from WN was placed at AAA, AWA, DAL, et al. in 2000, that the morale would be any different than it is today?

 

[ex j-41]

ASA $19/hr to start

Hey Midnight Flyer

Easy. Stop taking airline pilot jobs that only pay 20,000 per year.
At least that would be a start.

ASA starts out at $19/hr. I guess you just skipped first year pay? Went
on to Captain right away? Is it OK for you to start your career but not
for someone else? It was the MEC that siad that these wages were
acceptable. They negotiated these pay scales and that is that.
Now everyone who gets hired has no choice in the matter.
You are just as guilty pal. Sorry!

 

[FN FAL]

What would it take to fix this industry? Any thoughts?

Yea, raise minimum wage or work longer hours.

Information on the FLSA

General Information on the Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA)

Federal Minimum Wage:

• $4.75 per hour beginning October 1, 1996
• $5.15 per hour beginning September 1, 1997

Employees under 20 years of age may be paid $4.25 per hour during their first 90 consecutive calendar days of employment with an employer.

Certain full-time students, student learners, apprentices, and workers with disabilities may be paid less than the minimum wage under special certificates issued by the Department of Labor.

Tip Credit: Employers of "tipped employees" must pay a cash wage of at least $2.13 per hour if they claim a tip credit against their minimum wage obligation. If an employee's tips combined with the employer's cash wage of at least $2.13 per hour do not equal the minimum hourly wage, the employer must make up the difference. Certain other conditions must also be met.

Overtime Pay: At least 1½ times an employee's regular rate of pay for all hours worked over 40 in a workweek.

Child Labor: An employee must be at least 16 years old to work in most non-farm jobs and at least 18 to work in non-farm jobs declared hazardous by the Secretary of Labor. Youths 14 and 15 years old may work outside school hours in various non-manufacturing, non-mining, non-hazardous jobs under the following conditions:

No more than -

• 3 hours on a school day or 18 hours in a school week;
• 8 hours on a non-school day or 40 hours in a non-school week.

Also, work may not begin before 7 a.m. or end after 7 p.m., except from June 1 through Labor Day, when evening hours are extended to 9 p.m. Different rules apply in agricultural employment.

ENFORCEMENT: The Department of Labor may recover back wages, either administratively or through court action, for the employees that have been underpaid in violation of the law. Violations may result in civil or criminal action.

Fines of up to $11,000 per violation may be assessed against employers who violate the child labor provisions of the law and up to $1,100 per violation against employers who willfully or repeatedly violate the minimum wage or overtime pay provisions. This law prohibits discriminating against or discharging workers who file a complaint or participate in any proceedings under the Act.

Note:

• Certain occupations and establishments are exempt from the minimum wage and/or overtime pay provisions.
• Special provisions apply to workers in American Samoa.
• Where state law requires a higher minimum wage, the higher standard applies.

FOR ADDITIONAL INFORMATION, contact the nearest Wage and Hour Division office -- listed in most telephone directories under United States Government, Labor Department.

 

[pilotyip]

Too many negative vibes, this is still a great career where else can high school grad have shot at making $100K/yr by the time they are in thier mid 30's. Last I checked $100K is in the upper 10% of wages in the United States.
One last question if the SWA managment had come into UAL in 2000 and cut wages to the SWA level to ensure profitability, would the pilot morale at UAL have improved?

 

[belchfire]

One thing that needs to be fixed is something that
should be fixed in all US big businesses-the elimination
of "Golden Parachutes". It is my personal opinion that
no member of any management team should have a
base salery that is higher than the most senior hourly
employee; They would get a higher profit sharing
percentage and bonuses based on performance of
the company. Time was that that the owners paid
themselves last. As long as they keep paying
themselves the most first and get these massive
"severance packages" regardless of their performance
there is no incentive to take care of the people that
make the thing run on a day-to-day basis or the
business as a whole. They get to take their millions
and run regardless.

As for this industry we need a massive reduction of
seats avalible and force the people that still need to
fly to pay a price for that seat which will generate
a positive cash flow for the airlines. That and some
honorable people running the airlines would solve
every ill there is in the business...

It's that fracking simple...
You can rest assured that it will never happen.

 

[79%N1]

It cant be fixed...........at least not the regional level!

 

[IHateMgmt]

I agree with fly2scuba. When the public was buying their tickets, they used to search for the airline with the best safety and on time performance records. Now all they care about is the cheapest ticket, they might not even notice who is doing the flying. You get what you pay for. With the current trend in the airlines (we all know what that is) we are getting under-paid and under-qualified mechanics and pilots flying larger and faster aircraft. Consider that and all the outsourcing that is happening, and it is easy to see that safety at the airlines is going down the toilet.

My prediction on what it is going to take is sad. I think it will take a major accident. Hundreds of people will die and the public will ask, “why is my loved one dead?” NTSB will look into it and find the plane had just come straight from Mx oversees and a major part missing or incorrectly installed and the pilots of the big Boeing had been a pilot for only a year or two and didn’t have the training or experience to realize what was happening until it was too late. Then the government will be forced to step back in and re-regulate the airlines so they can afford to pay their labor what they are worth and train them to a high level of safety.

What do you think, maybe some truth to it or am I way off?

 

[pilotyip]

This is repeat of a thread, but it fits here. This is a pilot board so saying anything in defense of management is like peeing into the wind, that it is going to come back to you. CEO's are not intentionally running airlines into the ground. They would very much like to succeed. For lack of other reason it would make their resume look great, they would be doing something no other CEO had ever done. Top management includes many besides the CEO, the CEO sets direction as requested by the board. The CEO has little control over the airline, the airline is run by regulation and union contracts. They are at the mercy of the purchasing public, who with Internet access has made the airline ticket a perfectly elastic commodity. There is little they can do inside their structure. Other high paid top management personnel, in Operations, Maintenance. Marketing, Legal, Finance, etc. have unique skills in dealing with large organizations. This makes them marketable when shopping for a job, unlike pilots whose skills are nearly universal. An issue of ATW in the last year had an article about “Airline Management a dying breed”, the article basically said no one wants to do it. The good track record CEO’s are going to other industries. With tremendous, payrolls, overhead burdens, and extremely low margins, there is no tried and true path to success. Most have tried to increase market share, but this has lead to low price and ridiculous breakeven load factors in 95% range. What is management supposed to do? Eliminating management will bring the end quicker for the airplane industry, and their salaries are insignificant to the airlines operating costs. Without management you could not operate the airline, The FAA would shut it down without approved Part 119 key management. Would the pilots step up and become management for free in their spare time. Why is every time, pilot salaries come up, they are immediately compared to top management. I saw an article in ATW in the past couple years that stated at DAL there were 17 members of top management made more than the top DAL Captain. The combined top 17 salaries equaled less than 1/6 of 1% of the combined pilot salaries. If management worked for free all pilots in the company would get a 1/10 of 1% raise. (for a $100K per year pilot that would be $3/wk increase in take home) Boy that raise would really make the pilot group happy. Top management possesses skills that allow them to move from job to job and command high salaries. And every one of these managers wants to see his/her airline prosper. They just can not do it. How are you going to attract them if you do not reward them?

 

[mrnolmts]

...CEO's are not intentionally running airlines into the ground. They would very much like to succeed...

Agreed, but I believe the vast majority is putting their own "comfort and security" above anything else. There are many examples of CEO's coming in for a year or two, reaping HUGE benefits, and then leaving...

...The CEO has little control over the airline, the airline is run by regulation and union contracts...

This is only partially correct, in my opinion. A CEO has the power to make changes necessary to keep the employees happy. I believe most of them are so detached they don't realize how little it would take. First of all, honesty and integrity. Next, some sort of token of appreciation that will cost next to nothing, but repay tenfold.

...Eliminating management will bring the end quicker for the airplane industry, and their salaries are insignificant to the airlines operating costs...

I think noone is arguing that management is unnecessary. They are. I agree their salaries are insignificant to the operating costs. However, one point I *do* believe you fail to see is this: A CEO who publicly will take a pay freeze or a paycut when the airline is going through difficult times, will gain a tremendous amount of respect from the employees, making them feel "we are all in this together", and thus make them more accepting of cost-cutting measures and the like. It's hard to swallow hearing a CEO getting million dollar bonuses while the company is demanding significant paycuts from the employees.

...Top management possesses skills that allow them to move from job to job and command high salaries. And every one of these managers wants to see his/her airline prosper. They just can not do it...

Key word here is "Top". If they are indeed "Top", I truly believe the "They just can not do it" statement is false. Top management *can*, in my opinion, indeed make an airline prosper.

In summary, I disagree with most of your assertions, pilotyip.

 

[BizPilot]

Consider OTHER jobs in Aviation - very satisfying

I posted this in another thread....but thought it was very appropriate for the "Regional" board and wanted to share it with you as well:

I don't want to bore you all with "my story". But I want to share it with you to let you know there is a lot of happiness in aviation out there other than just flying planes. First, though, My story so you understand:
I graduated from UND in 1996. Took my 1st CFI job making $16,000 a year. All after earning a 4-year degree and certificates. After 6 months, I decided to CFI elsewhere, hoping for more money. Moved to a new location only to make $16,000 a year after being told I would have more students. So I supplemented my income with credit cards. Built up a debt of $6000.00. Got a job at Home Depot to supplement my CFI income and to pay off my debts. Worked 50 to 60 work weeks (including weekends). After 1 year earned my 1st part 135 job flying air freight. Starting pay was $14,500 a year - to fly/manage a C402B at an outstation base. Working hours were 8pm to 2am, break, and 5am to 6am. 4 days a week. Did this for 6 months flying through thunderstorms, moderate icing, and in 1970's equipment with nightly equipment failures (I'm not complaining....just telling you how it was...and I wouldn't take back the experience...it was all worth it....glad I did it for those who want to start bashing me....this is the reality of the career building process). Landed my first break with Co-Ex flying ATR-42's/72's in the late 1990's. Launched off to Houston for training. Starting pay at the time was about $17,000 a year, right seat, flying 48 and 68 passenger prop's around the southern states. Slept in a crashpad - 2 bedroom apartment, shared with 5 other pilots. A couch, 13 inch TV with rabbit ears, and air mattresses scattered throughout. Did this for 1 year (11 months). Heard about a Part 135 charter job in the Midwest from a buddy. Decided to "take a step back" in order to make-a-living. It was an instant $12,000 a year pay increase. Flew twin Cessna's around the Midwest for 2 years at $29,000 a year......(after 8 years, finally broke the $20,000 a year mark). I was very happy. No I wasn't doing what I wanted for "my aviation dream", but I was home nearly every night in my own bed. Bought my 1st house and saw my wife nearly every day who miraculously had stayed with me during all this time (since I left UND). Then the day hit we all dread to hear - 9/11. Three of us were let go from the 135 outfit within the next 6 months. I sent resumes out for the next 6 months with no avail. I was depressed. Took a job working for a local electronics company as an assembler. Starting pay was $30,000 a year, full 401k match, ESOP plan, 3 weeks vacation starting out, 4 day work weeks (day shift). I did this for the next three years. But I became depressed like most of you would - I fully understand the "love of aviation." All I could do was dream about flying planes as I snapped computer parts together. I began to explore "Other" jobs in aviaiton. Doing internet searches I found a ton of non-flying aviation jobs that paid good money.
There are tons of non-flying opportunities for Pilots out there in aviation, with good pay. NOBODY should be complaining about the aviation industry. You just need to seek it out a bit. For example - Cirrus Design in Duluth, all kinds of jobs. Also, there are nearly 25 VLJ (very light jet) manufacturers that are firing-up assembly lines looking for business professionals in Marketing, Finance, Demo-Pilots, Test Pilots, Contract Administration, etc. that all pay in excess of $30K a year starting (usually with full benefits too). Then there are companies like Honeywell, Allied Signal, Rockwell Collins, Boeing, Cessna, Gulfstream, Bombardier, etc. They are all looking for people with aviation backgrounds. I landed a job with one of the above last year. I have been told by my co-workers countless times how lucky I am to have previous aviation experience as a Pilot. They look up to me for my advice, and techncial perspective on a regular basis. It couldn't be more satisfying knowing the 'crappy' 10 years I had as a Pilot are now truely paying off in a professional career.
And what about the flying?? Well my company has a flying club (and most of the above do if you look into it). I have the choice to fly three aircraft at my discretion at reduced rental rates. My wife and I fly TOGETHER at least on a weekly basis now. Out to eat at fancy restaurants, we go to concerts in large cities, and visit friends and family scattered all over the country. I am working a career that I love - AVIATION. My pay is in excess of $50K (Starting Sal.). I live in a home much larger than I ever dreamed. I get to log 3 or 4 hours a flight time a week on my own time. My wife doesn't have to work full-time anymore. She gets to see me everyday.
So don't be let down by Pilot Pay! Get out there and search a bit. There are tons of gratifying jobs in aviation where you can be "around airplanes" all day long and be paid good money for your "background".
If you need more help - PM me and I will assist you with all kinds of resources. Life couldn't be better right now......and I know my company is looking for 7,000 additional workers over the next 3 years. Good luck and FLY SAFE!

 

[YourPilotFriend]

There should only be 3-4 total airlines in the USA. With no more or less being allowed. This will fix everything.

 

[pilotyip]

Back in the old days before de-reg there was a pact called "Mutual Aid". This provided income to airlines that were shut down by employees on strike. If the employees at ABC Airlines went on strike and the load factor on XYZ Air went up, some of the revenue from the increased load factor at XYZ Air flowed back to ABC Airlines. This gave the shut down airline a source of revenue to allow them to let the employees stay out on strike a longer time. It gave a balance to both management and union to reach a reasonable contract. When mutual aid went away with de-reg in1977, it gave the unions a much stronger hand. The highly leveraged airline could not stay in business with a stop in cash flow for any extended period. This lead to shorter strikes, and contracts companies would prefer not to enter, but had no choice because of their leveraged position. This stronger union position may have been good for the union employees in the short term, but is has been detrimental to the airline industry in the long run. A return to re-reg would hurt more pilots than it helped. There is no easy solution that is pilot centric