what the hell "sapa"

[Blucher]

Once again, ALPA is NOT your only option. Look around the industry and you will see this.

-Blucher

 

[jayme]

His intention is that SAPA be removed, thereby leaving the pilots with no choice for representation other than ALPA. This tactic is an 'end around' because Mark and the OC know that if they'd simply put it to a vote, that the majority would not vote for ALPA over our current structure. Removing our current structure makes it an easier fight for them, and since they haven't sold the majority on adopting a union mentality. this is their plan 'B.'

Mark has stated publicly that he didn't know about the lawsuit until AFTER it was filed. How did he have a hand in showing the court that SAPA is an illegal entity?

I'll save you the time: HE HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH TRYING TO DISOLVE SAPA.

 

[jayme]

the fantasy that persists seems to be that with ALPA on board we'll just demand things and get them, and that these items that you are unhappy with will just be taken care of because ALPA can force management to do what they want.

I have NEVER heard this argument from the OC. The point of a contract is to PRESERVE what we have instead of the slow but steady degredation in compensation and work rules that we are seeing.

 

[Ben Dover]

SkyNation,
You are correct that Mark is a good guy.

I'll tell you what. I'll concede that the OC is doing an "end run", as you say, IF the court rules against the OC. As long as you are willing to concede that management has been doing an "end run" around the pilots for all these years, if the court rules against SAPA.

 

[MYFpilot]

2-again, who wouldn't want more? they make more than any other 30 seat T-prop drivers, however, and you have to be realistic about the environment, the competition, and where your pay lines up in regards to others

4th year Per hour 30 seat rate from airlinepilotcentral.com

ERA DHC-8 $55
Horizon DHC-8 $55
Piedmont DHC-8 $52
Island Air DHC-8 $49
Eagle SF-340 $49
SkyWest EMB-120 $48 (Me)
Mesaba SF-340 $48
Mesa DHC-8 $44
Gulfstream EMB-120 $44
Commutair DHC-8 $41
Greatlakes EMB-120 $36


...Stuck in the middle as usual.

 

[Gr82Aviate]

4th year Per hour 30 seat rate from airlinepilotcentral.com

ERA DHC-8 $55
Horizon DHC-8 $55
Piedmont DHC-8 $52
Island Air DHC-8 $49
Eagle SF-340 $49
SkyWest EMB-120 $48 (Me)
Mesaba SF-340 $48
Mesa DHC-8 $44
Gulfstream EMB-120 $44
Commutair DHC-8 $41
Greatlakes EMB-120 $36


...Stuck in the middle as usual.

Seems that math isn't Skynation's strong suit?!!

 

[Tomct]

I know Mark and knew where he stood. He is a good guy, we just disagree on what will serve this pilot group best. His intention is that SAPA be removed, thereby leaving the pilots with no choice for representation other than ALPA. This tactic is an 'end around' because Mark and the OC know that if they'd simply put it to a vote, that the majority would not vote for ALPA over our current structure. Removing our current structure makes it an easier fight for them, and since they haven't sold the majority on adopting a union mentality. this is their plan 'B.'

Well then I will tell you that when the company DOES....AND THEY WILL...SCREW YOU and your entire pilot group, everyone will all stand idly by and laugh! Keep your current "group" and see what happens! Good luck with that...maybe you should listen to SSDD who has been at Skywst forever!

 

[PBRstreetgang]

I appreciate your opinion. I have mine. SkyWest responds to the market, not to ALPA, Teamsters, or whomever. ALPA doesn't dictate to the market what pay, QOL, work rules, etc. will be. It is the other way around.


If we are only replicating what other regionals got before us, then why do we have so many things that are better?

I don't agree with your argument. So, we'll have to agree to disagree.

skyclown,
I do not respect your position, nor do appreciate your opinion. You are 100% wrong, in the past SKYW has used the leading UNION regional airlines contracts for comparison during"pay talks". I have been ALPA, at a prior regional 8 years ago. You pimp the company JBs,2daves, and all of the other kool-aid drinkers like rush l. sound bites. ALPA is not trying to dissolve SAPA, they petitioned the courts for a legal opinion and relief from possibly illegal operations by the company. If those issues are found to be anything other than legal by the court , the decision will have been rendered by the courts as provided by the constiution. SKYW has been running roughshod over this pilot group, using SAPA as the tool and messenger of choice.I have always spoken vocally that SAPA is an illegal/immoral entity, SKYW spends in excess of $650,000 yearly on the operation of SAPA, yet they couldn't pay the EMB guys anything? Your arguments are poorly researched, and are mostly company supplied rhetoric, do your own research. The company funded union has been done before, check it out, it was illegal then and it is still today. I want BH to tell me as a pilot for the company why I need to have PBS stuffed down my throat, the $hitty payscale, constant erosion the work rules(re: daily reconcillation vs leg by leg). You are either with the pilot group or with the company, it really is that simple.
In either case, please apply to another union carrier and "move up", so we can be rid of your kind. I want somebody I can trust sitting in the seat next to me not a "button pusher, commissioned ballast type"
So for now,
Continental, Delta and UAL are hiring and I am sure they would welcome you and your anti union rhetoric.
PBR
P.S. Quite a few of the more recent transplants came from "other ALPA regional" carriers, fact is they couldn't get hired BY SKYW previously, SKYW has become desperate due to the GREED factor and has become willing to lower the standards that they had previously used and a benchmark for hiring. Now we hire 1000/100 types who in days past wouldn't get an interview. You obviously are one of those last choice type who wouldn't have been hired 5-6 years ago. Fact is I actually pity you, you will never experience "the good old days of yore", you will be a hamster on a tread mill, getting nowhere in a hurry. Now go to the company website and pick up some of that mesa 1.5 overtime and make Jerry and his kids another wheelbarrow of money. At least the F/As were getting 2x for awhile, you are too stupid and greedy to wait for that, so carry on.

 

[Tomct]

skyclown,
I do not respect your position, nor do appreciate your opinion. You are 100% wrong, in the past SKYW has used the leading UNION regional airlines contracts for comparison during"pay talks". I have been ALPA, at a prior regional 8 years ago. You pimp the company JBs,2daves, and all of the other kool-aid drinkers rush l. sound bites. ALPA is not trying to dissolve SAPA, they petitioned the courts for a legal opinion and relief from possibly illegal operations by the company. If those issues are found to be anything other than legal by the court , the decision will have been rendered by the courts as provided by the constiution. SKYW has been running roughshod over this pilot group, using SAPA as the tool and messenger of choice.I have always spoken vocally that SAPA is an illegal/immoral entity, SKYW spends in excess of $650,000 yearly on the operation of SAPA, yet they couldn't pay the EMB guys anything? Your arguments are poorly researched, and are mostly company supplied rhetoric, do your own research. The company funded union has been done before, check it out, it was illegal then and it is still today. I want BH to tell me as a pilot for the company why I need to have PBS stuffed down my throat, the $hitty payscale, constant erosion the work rules(re: daily reconcillation vs leg by leg). You are either with the pilot group or with the company, it really is that simple.
In either case, please apply to another union carrier and "move up", so we can be rid of your kind. I want somebody I can trust sitting in the seat next to me not a "button pusher, commissioned ballast type"
So for now,
Continental, Delta and UAL are hiring and I am sure they would welcome you and your anti union rhetoric.
PBR
P.S. Quite a few of the more recent transplants came from "other ALPA regional" carriers, fact is they couldn't get hired BY SKYW previously, SKYW has become desperate due to the GREED factor and has become willing to lower the standards that they had previously used and a benchmark for hiring. Now we hire 1000/100 types who in days past wouldn't get an interview. You obviously are one of those last choice type who wouldn't have been hired 5-6 years ago. Fact is I actually pity you, you will never experience "the good old days of yore", you will be a hamster on a tread mill, getting nowhere in a hurry. Now go to the company website and pick up some of that mesa 1.5 overtime and make Jerry and his kids another wheelbarrow of money. At least the F/As were getting 2x for awhile, you are too stupid and greedy to wait for that, so carry on.

PBStreet...good post. You made me aware of some things. Nice to know there are folks (and I know there are) at Skywst that are not full on Kool-Aid drinkers. Hope the skies treat you kindly, you would be welcome on my Jumpseat ANYTIME!!

 

[PBRstreetgang]

PBStreet...good post. You made me aware of some things. Nice to know there are folks (and I know there are) at Skywst that are not full on Kool-Aid drinkers. Hope the skies treat you kindly, you would be welcome on my Jumpseat ANYTIME!!

Ditto for you dude!
Employee/employer relationship is a yin and yang thing, diametrically opposed. For a stasis to be achieved the power must be equally shared, labor must acknowledege its responsibility to managment/company, and the company must acknowledge its responsiability to the employees. EQUALLY, that is not the case today, ULTIMATE POWER ULTIMATELY CORRUPTS!
See wikkipedia-SAPA, 2daves ect.
PBR

 

[Tomct]

Ditto for you dude!
Employee/employer relationship is a yin and yang thing, diametrically opposed. For a stasis to be achieved the power must be equally shared, labor must acknowledege its responsibility to managment/company, and the company must acknowledge its responsiability to the employees. EQUALLY, that is not the case today, ULTIMATE POWER ULTIMATELY CORRUPTS!
See wikkipedia-SAPA, 2daves ect.
PBR

Muy BUENO!!imp:

 

[Gr82Aviate]

Ditto for you dude!
Employee/employer relationship is a yin and yang thing, diametrically opposed. For a stasis to be achieved the power must be equally shared, labor must acknowledege its responsibility to managment/company, and the company must acknowledge its responsiability to the employees. EQUALLY, that is not the case today, ULTIMATE POWER ULTIMATELY CORRUPTS!
See wikkipedia-SAPA, 2daves ect.
PBR

A freekin MEN !!!!

 

[ArcticFlier]

you can be a rep and support, or be a member of, the OC.

it is duplicitous and deceptive, however, to hide your support for one or the other until elected.

This is funny. I don't know MN........but I did know that he was a supporter of ALPA. I guess I did my homework..............you apparently didn't.

 

[ArcticFlier]

Ditto for you dude!
Employee/employer relationship is a yin and yang thing, diametrically opposed. For a stasis to be achieved the power must be equally shared, labor must acknowledege its responsibility to managment/company, and the company must acknowledge its responsiability to the employees. EQUALLY, that is not the case today, ULTIMATE POWER ULTIMATELY CORRUPTS!
See wikkipedia-SAPA, 2daves ect.
PBR

Word, Bro..........

 

[Nightrain_080]

Does the market dictate lying to you? Does the market dictate charging you for non rev travel? Does the market equate to a slow erosion of your current work rules? If so, then I stand corrected. You have things that are better because if you didn't, your pilot group would have organized a long time ago. You have what you have because of my/our fight. Skywest Inc. does not want a Union on the property because it represents you and your colleagues. It gives YOU some control. Checks and balances. You are replicating other Regionals + a slight increase due to no Union which = no control = Skywest Inc. happy. They are taking things away slowly. They will ride it out and give you and your pilot group exactly what it takes to not give up that control.

Trojan

Exactly.....If you can't see the reality of this post then you really are selfish and don't have a heart SkyNation.
I believe you do, your just paranoid about Alpa. I can respect that. I can't respect SkyWest making 140+ million a year and not sharing the profits with the employees.
Management claims to always keep us at or near the top of pay and QOL. They are not even close. If it doesn't raise your brow that Expressjet and Horizon were left off david "weakest link" L's smoke and mirrors charts and nonsense graphs during his and uncle ricos pay campaign, it should concern all of us where sapa has made its bed. (pre M.N. of course)
No raise for the Brasilia drivers is not consistent with the market. It's uncle ricos insider way of playing (false) hardball with sapa. M.N. has stood up to uncle rico while no one else cares to offend the poor chap. Sapa I belive will self-destruct by the end of the year. Let's not get duped by the EB brown toppers again. Sapa is swallowing everything uncle rico demands and it has turned into a total erosion of QOL, pay, morale and the market dictates otherwise at SkyWest.

 

[Tomct]

Exactly.....If you can't see the reality of this post then you really are selfish and don't have a heart SkyNation.
I believe you do, your just paranoid about Alpa. I can respect that. I can't respect SkyWest making 140+ million a year and not sharing the profits with the employees.
Management claims to always keep us at or near the top of pay and QOL. They are not even close. If it doesn't raise your brow that Expressjet and Horizon were left off david "weakest link" L's smoke and mirrors charts and nonsense graphs during his and uncle ricos pay campaign, it should concern all of us where sapa has made its bed. (pre M.N. of course)
No raise for the Brasilia drivers is not consistent with the market. It's uncle ricos insider way of playing (false) hardball with sapa. M.N. has stood up to uncle rico while no one else cares to offend the poor chap. Sapa I belive will self-destruct by the end of the year. Let's not get duped by the EB brown toppers again. Sapa is swallowing everything uncle rico demands and it has turned into a total erosion of QOL, pay, morale and the market dictates otherwise at SkyWest.

You said it brother!!!

 

[Nightrain_080]

ohhhhhhh

I know Mark and knew where he stood. He is a good guy, we just disagree on what will serve this pilot group best. His intention is that SAPA be removed, thereby leaving the pilots with no choice for representation other than ALPA. This tactic is an 'end around' because Mark and the OC know that if they'd simply put it to a vote, that the majority would not vote for ALPA over our current structure. Removing our current structure makes it an easier fight for them, and since they haven't sold the majority on adopting a union mentality. this is their plan 'B.'

Your definition of end around is somewhat believable. Although give it at least another 6 or more months of the current tactics that uncle rico is using such as no cancellation pay, PBS forced flying (yes it is still occurring) and with sapa in court, this young pilot group may open their eyes and see that an "end around" is much better road than a "bend over a barrel." The 7 year trend. To quote a classic from the sapa boards..."uncle rico (bh) doesn't even fart in our general direction"

 

[Tomct]

Your definition of end around is somewhat believable. Although give it at least another 6 or more months of the current tactics that uncle rico is using such as no cancellation pay, PBS forced flying (yes it is still occurring) and with sapa in court, this young pilot group may open their eyes and see that an "end around" is much better road than a "bend over a barrel." The 7 year trend. To quote a classic from the sapa boards..."uncle rico (bh) doesn't even fart in our general direction"

Hopefully your young pilot group will realize that the "End Round" is going to be more like a "Reach Around" if they don't get some kind of protection....and I don't mean Shrinkwrap either!

 

[Nightrain_080]

Hopefully your young pilot group will realize that the "End Round" is going to be more like a "Reach Around" if they don't get some kind of protection....and I don't mean Shrinkwrap either!

\\

LMAO!!! NO DOUBT.

Let's hope they stop drinking the Kool-aid and momma milk.

 

[ASAFLY2]

Maybe they are free because they are worthless. And anyone who honestly doesn't believe that ALPA hasn't helped at ASA is truly either someone who has no idea what has happened there, or is simply an idiot.

Exactly! The good folks at Skywest don't understand why we need a union at ASA. The benefit of ALPA is mainly job protection. With the actions of our mgmt group, I am more than happy to pay 2% to make sure I can make the right decisions as a Captain without fear of reprecussion from the company.

 

[SkyNation]

This is funny. I don't know MN........but I did know that he was a supporter of ALPA. I guess I did my homework..............you apparently didn't.

you haven't read my posts, smart guy. I knew, which is why I didn't vote for him. and now he's quit anyway.

 

[Morning Wood]

Does the market dictate charging you for non rev travel?
Trojan

Yes, the market does dictate this. UA gave us the free WYO after the Summer of Love 2000 and then took them away after entering Chapter 11 as they did with their own employees, union and non-union. The Delta changes have not happened and I don't think any of us knows the details yet. I fail to see how ALPA or anyone else is going to keep this from happening as they weren't able to keep it away at UA.

 

[flygirl556]

SkyNation, I understand that maybe you might feel a little burnt by ALPA from your previous experience and that's fine and understandable. I was also at another ALPA carrier where things weren't great either. The one thing I've definitely learned from gathering information from people is that for a particular airline, ALPA is only as good as your MEC and contract. If you don't have an MEC that is corrupt, you have people who plan on staying for the long haul to see things through and they really support this profession and their fellow pilots, I think ALPA, or any union for that matter, has a lot to offer. I know that the QOL at Skywest is better than a lot of places but what also needs to be realized is that while it is relatively good today, with penstroke policy changes, it could all be gone tomorrow without a contract, and unfortunately, the pilots wouldn't have a leg to stand on. Whether you are pro-union or anti-union or whatever you are, why wouldn't you want to try and make things better. I think that everybody at every airline can all agree that things could always be better--there's always room for improvement. It amazes me that whether people plan on staying at Skywest for 3 months, 3 years, 10 years or however long it might be, that some people are more interested in keeping the status quo than at least trying to make it the best place possible for however long you are there for. That's a duration in your life that you'll never get back so why not do whatever it takes to try and make things better than what they are now? Skywest is a very profitable company and it comes from the folks who try their hardest to get the job done on the line everyday. Don't you know what you're worth? Don't you think you deserve better? Don't you think it would be great to make Skywest the best place it can be not only for yourself, but for your fellow pilots as well? I'd really like to know why so many pilots are satisfied with settling with what they have instead of trying to effectively make things better. By effective, I mean actually negotiating something--not just listening to somebody else tell you how it's gonna be. Any insightful answers would be greatly appreciated.

 

[HockleyPilot]

Poop

SkyWest was the first one who created this "hostile" relationship. I keep hearing a union will "create" an adversarial relationship.

Hello, McFly......Anybody Home? Think McFly, think.........

When did this relationship start? Ah, after the ACE, who stalled on getting a new "so-called" contract? or.....

How about when 6 day work blocks started appearing or

when PBS started forcing JR Man, but not really, time on our schedules because it is up to us to staff the airline?

Or how about the talking puppets, Dave L. or Dave A. having BH's hand up their ass, talking directly for him........

________________________________________________________________

Or is it the pilots that started this "adversarial" relationship by asking for respect? Dignity? (DO YOU REALLY LIKE HOW CREW SUPPORT CALLS AND TREATS YOU LIKE A CHILD SOMETIMES?)

Is that what happened when some pilots called ALPA and wanted to see the interest in a union? Is that where it started? If they wanted to keep the divorce from happening they could have stopped F'ing us around and give us a small bone around the amendable time of our agreement and we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

Instead, every week we get emails that rub our profits (and our lack of perf bonus) in our damn face by them saying, "We at SkyWest do so well, all because of our employees. They make the difference. Or I know from an operational standpoint we had a rough week, but you as a group pulled together and that SkyWest spirit got us through. Thank you for your hard work."
Yet, they could give a rat's arse about us for a pay raise or COLA. But keep the emails and raves, and all the other BS coming. Go Team! I will feed my family on those emails while some continue to give them the benefit of the doubt and think everything that comes out SGU is gold. Give me a break.

Time for the executive board, Dave's, MS, and JB to go. Otherwise, we might as well elect Brad for our vacant presidential slot......


It's just as easy having the sales team anyway.

Rant over, back to the whiskey.......

 

[Gr82Aviate]

SkyWest was the first one who created this "hostile" relationship. I keep hearing a union will "create" an adversarial relationship.

Hello, McFly......Anybody Home? Think McFly, think.........

When did this relationship start? Ah, after the ACE, who stalled on getting a new "so-called" contract? or.....

How about when 6 day work blocks started appearing or

when PBS started forcing JR Man, but not really, time on our schedules because it is up to us to staff the airline?

Or how about the talking puppets, Dave L. or Dave A. having BH's hand up their ass, talking directly for him........

________________________________________________________________

Or is it the pilots that started this "adversarial" relationship by asking for respect? Dignity? (DO YOU REALLY LIKE HOW CREW SUPPORT CALLS AND TREATS YOU LIKE A LIKE CHILD SOMETIMES?)

Is that what happened when some pilots called ALPA and wanted to see the interest in a union? Is that where it started? If they wanted to keep the divorce from happening they could have stopped F'ing us around and give us a small bone around the amendable time of our agreement and we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

Instead, every week we get emails that rub our profits (and our lack of perf bonus) in our damn face by them saying, "We at SkyWest do so well, all because of our employees. They make the difference. Or I know from an operational standpoint we had a rough week, but you as a group pulled together and that SKyWest spirit got us through. Thank you for your hard work." Yet, they could give a rat's arse about us for a pay raise or COLA. But keep the emails and raves, and all the other BS coming. Go Team! I will feed my family on those emails while some continue to give them the benefit of the doubt and think everything that comes out SGU is gold. Give me a break.

Time for the executive board, Dave's, MS, and JB to go. Otherwise, we might as well elect Brad for our vacant presidential slot......


It's just as easy having the sales team anyway.

Rant over, back to the whiskey.......

You nailed it!!! Listening Newwoman & Skypestnation?

 

[Nightrain_080]

Uncle Rico

SkyWest was the first one who created this "hostile" relationship. I keep hearing a union will "create" an adversarial relationship.

Hello, McFly......Anybody Home? Think McFly, think.........

When did this relationship start? Ah, after the ACE, who stalled on getting a new "so-called" contract? or.....

How about when 6 day work blocks started appearing or

when PBS started forcing JR Man, but not really, time on our schedules because it is up to us to staff the airline?

Or how about the talking puppets, Dave L. or Dave A. having BH's hand up their ass, talking directly for him........

________________________________________________________________

Or is it the pilots that started this "adversarial" relationship by asking for respect? Dignity? (DO YOU REALLY LIKE HOW CREW SUPPORT CALLS AND TREATS YOU LIKE A CHILD SOMETIMES?)

Is that what happened when some pilots called ALPA and wanted to see the interest in a union? Is that where it started? If they wanted to keep the divorce from happening they could have stopped F'ing us around and give us a small bone around the amendable time of our agreement and we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

Instead, every week we get emails that rub our profits (and our lack of perf bonus) in our damn face by them saying, "We at SkyWest do so well, all because of our employees. They make the difference. Or I know from an operational standpoint we had a rough week, but you as a group pulled together and that SkyWest spirit got us through. Thank you for your hard work."
Yet, they could give a rat's arse about us for a pay raise or COLA. But keep the emails and raves, and all the other BS coming. Go Team! I will feed my family on those emails while some continue to give them the benefit of the doubt and think everything that comes out SGU is gold. Give me a break.

Time for the executive board, Dave's, MS, and JB to go. Otherwise, we might as well elect Brad for our vacant presidential slot......


It's just as easy having the sales team anyway.

Rant over, back to the whiskey.......

Looks like someone admitted to the threatening email sent by one of the sapa reps. "lets get that little Mother Fu*$ker outta here." This is quality leadership with an "Me, Me, Me" agenda. These lackey pukes are already getting 105 hours a month based on some windfall average. Why are we wasting time not starting a recall and getting these high altitude management pawns the hell out of the way.

Here is to hoping uncle rico resigns next.
Recall "weakest Link" livingstink in 07

 

[HockleyPilot]

Oh Yea!

 

[ArcticFlier]

you haven't read my posts, smart guy. I knew, which is why I didn't vote for him. and now he's quit anyway.

Another quote from you:

it is duplicitous and deceptive, however, to hide your support for one or the other until elected.

Sounds to me like you're complaining about a lack of knowledge regarding Mark's support for ALPA. It wasn't much of an assumption to figure you felt as though you were led astray.

My point was that he didn't hide it. Yet you felt as though he did. It only took me about 10 seconds to figure out where he stood. I asked. Not hard.