What is wrong with this picture???

[Freightdog75]

Republic.

Those of us who are lucky enough to be flying the 145 here at RP got to take a test recently. We are switching our performance data vendor to Aerodata. The company decides to give us a self-study packet on it and than a test. Not too big of a deal except............No pay, and do it on your FREE time. Union says we should be able to do/learn this on our own. Wow, like many others, i'm not a happy camper. I, again like others, have another job and needed to take off in order to study/take a test.

Imagine a carpenter getting a self-study packet and test to do on his/her own time for free, do you think it would fly? No. Their union would tear it this kind of scenario apart! So why do us professionals who pay our unions our hard earned money get stepped on? What is the deal?

Sorry all, just had to vent!!

FD75

 

[shamrock]

ASA got an hour of pay for the Aerodata studying.

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

We got paid at Mesaba to do the study and take a test.

What could happen if you don't take the test? Does your FOM say somewhere that you have to do this type of thing?

 

[Oakum_Boy]

Republic.

Those of us who are lucky enough to be flying the 145 here at RP got to take a test recently. We are switching our performance data vendor to Aerodata. The company decides to give us a self-study packet on it and than a test. Not too big of a deal except............No pay, and do it on your FREE time. Union says we should be able to do/learn this on our own. Wow, like many others, i'm not a happy camper. I, again like others, have another job and needed to take off in order to study/take a test.

Imagine a carpenter getting a self-study packet and test to do on his/her own time for free, do you think it would fly? No. Their union would tear it this kind of scenario apart! So why do us professionals who pay our unions our hard earned money get stepped on? What is the deal?

Sorry all, just had to vent!!

FD75

Our union didn't say ******************** either. Only, because our contract is so old, the personal computer wasn't even a glimmer in Bill Gates eye.

When you start negotiating your next contract. BE ABSOULTELY SURE that you bargain for fair compensation for this type of junk.

Training will be going this way in the future, and if ASA doesn't account for it with the new TA, it's a big NOOOOOOO vote from me.

Just imagine doing four days of recurrent ground school at home on your own time for ZERO compensation. That's right, ZERO.

 

[flyer172r]

Not to mention the fact that most of the guys who did the self-study don't understand how to use the aerodata at all.

 

[Oakum_Boy]

Yeah, like me. When you're up ******************** creek, just say ******************** it, were going full throttle out of here.

 

[willNOTfly4free]

How long did it take you to complete the self-study packet?
I completed 15 hours worth of online recurrent training last month with no extra pay.

 

[Pilot124]

Union says we should be able to do/learn this on our own. quote


WTFO????

What do we have unions for??????
I hate when I hear this sh!t from our union or any union for that matter. Why don't they ask "US"
if we think we should get paid for this. A quote like this from our union has me P!ssed off!!!!!!:angryfire

 

[Stifler's Mom]

That self study is crap when it comes to the AeroData stuff. I finally got a formal ground school in it after doing it online for a year. Wow, what an eye opener when it came to actually how to do it.

Like Oakum said. When in doubt, screw the flex, go full power.

 

[BoilerUP]

Aerodata isn't that hard...when you've had a good ground instructor break it down for you.

Self-study without training department guidance, for something as insignificant and unimportant as PERFORMANCE? WTF are the folks on Purdue Road thinking?!?!?!

 

[Stifler's Mom]

AeroDate is pretty straight forward when there are no deferrals on your AC and the weather is nice. It's when your APU is deferred, and the airport is contaminated with Level 2 slush that makes you have to work harder at all the "gotchas".

Good luck with that 25 minute turn...the clock is ticking.

 

[Grey Ghost]

What do you mean "lucky enough to fly the 145"? I thought that thing was completely underpowered? Does'nt it climb out at like .56????

 

[Aviation Geek]

Um, not to rain on anybody's parade, but unpaid study is a part of many careers. Lawyers, doctors, nurses, teachers, social workers and others have to take a certain amount of "training" on an annual basis in order to maintain certain professional credentials. It is part of their salary.

I know people in all these fields and they do not get any extra pay for the weekend(s) they have to take to maintain these credentials. In fact, many of them (like lawyer and doctors) have to actually take time off from the billable side of their work to take these classes. In essence, they have fewer working hours to make money in order to stay current. Usually they have to pay to take these courses, pay for their travel and pay for their accommodations and meals.

The only reason I bring this up is that pilots often compare themselves to others in the professional classes (given the study, cost of education, hours of training, responsibility for assets/lives we all have). The argument that some additional study should be compensated may fall on deaf ears during a contract negotiation.

 

[zasca]

Just as you said, "It is part of their salary". If my salary was 250k, like that doctor, I wouldn't mind at all. But we are mostly paid by the HOUR... Oh and don't forget all the downtime periods making per diem pay. We get for paid recurrent, why not this???

 

[zasca]

Oh, but you wouldn't know about that yet would you Avgeek?

 

[Guitar Guy]

Um, not to rain on anybody's parade, but unpaid study is a part of many careers. Lawyers, doctors, nurses, teachers, social workers and others...

The pilot on this thread are, for the most part, professional pilots. We typically get paid to attend company recurrent and simulator/aircraft recurrent training. Doctors, lawyers, teachers - different work group or industry if you prefer. It's like comparing apples to golf balls.

In fact, many of them (like lawyer and doctors) have to actually take time off from the billable side of their work to take these classes. In essence, they have fewer working hours to make money in order to stay current. Usually they have to pay to take these courses, pay for their travel and pay for their accommodations and meals.

Go back and talk to some of your friends in various professions that have continuing education requirements. You'll find that some companies/firms/employers allow time off for this sort of training and in some cases, pay for it. Also, with regards to assertion about lawyers and "billable hours", you'll also find that they can bill hours outside of the normal 9-5/Mon-Fri work week. So that "lost time" for training can be made back easily if desired.

 

[nimtz]

Um, not to rain on anybody's parade, but unpaid study is a part of many careers. Lawyers, doctors, nurses, teachers, social workers and others have to take a certain amount of "training" on an annual basis in order to maintain certain professional credentials. It is part of their salary.

I know people in all these fields and they do not get any extra pay for the weekend(s) they have to take to maintain these credentials. In fact, many of them (like lawyer and doctors) have to actually take time off from the billable side of their work to take these classes. In essence, they have fewer working hours to make money in order to stay current. Usually they have to pay to take these courses, pay for their travel and pay for their accommodations and meals.

The only reason I bring this up is that pilots often compare themselves to others in the professional classes (given the study, cost of education, hours of training, responsibility for assets/lives we all have). The argument that some additional study should be compensated may fall on deaf ears during a contract negotiation.

This sounds like self study for a specific COMPANY related issue that compares little with your example. Studying how your COMPANY wants perf data should be done on their dime. I have done a @ssload of self study for this career on my own time in order to further myself like a MD or lawyer. Try reading HANDLING THE BIG JETS in your free time and then tell me I don't compare to an accountant studying Sabers-Oaxley. You allow the company to not pay you for self study like this, all the sudden you are bombarded with required training modules.

 

[Axel]

The "pay for home study" was arbitrated and lost. Copied from another website:

Recurrent requires a specific number of training hours mandated by the FAA. RAH has permission from the FAA to substitute "home study" for classroom time to meet that requirement. We are given "home study credit" to meet the minimum time requirements

For all this other stuff (AeroData, LAHSO), the FAA requires training and documentation that that the training has been conducted, but does not specify any minimum amount of time. Since there is no minimum time specified by the FAA, there is no "credit" assigned and therefore, according to the arbitrator, no requirement for the company to pay us.

Quote: 3.M. Training Pay

2. If the company elects to use any method of training such as “home
study” to comply with FAA requirements, a pilot will be paid and
credited with one (1) hour of flight pay for every two (2) hours of
FAA-approved training credit earned in home study.

The timing of the switch to AeroData on the 145 side (2 weeks after the arbitration decision) is not a coincidence. Please keep this nickel and dime BS in mind next time you are asked a favor or your cellphone rings.

 

[doh]

You really should respond to this by just doing your job, not going the extra mile. Stop using your cell for company business on the road. Stop helping out when some one below the wing forgets something. It really wil get their attention.

 

[DrewBlows]

That sucks. I hope you guys sure up the language in your next contract, you deserve it.

At Comair we had differences training when they brought the -900 on property; it consisted of limitations and Aerodata. Every -700 pilot went to a day of ground school and was paid 4 hours. The company tried to do a self study when it completely changed the non-precision approach procedures. After some prodding from our friendly union representatives the training was incorporated in recurrent ground and simulator training, a much safer option in my opinion. As an aside, we didn't get any additional pay in this case but it was the safe thing to do.

 

[dispatchguy]

At least be happy youre getting AeroData, and not that crappy APG garbage that isnt worth the paper its written on. At least AeroData can handle nearly any performance-related MEL without needing the dispatchers to do any AFM spaghetti chart chasing.

 

[Freightdog75]

Sorry been gone for 2 days working the other job.

Wow, what a response by you folks. Apparently this type of thing struck a nerve with you guys. Well.................the result of me not taking this test in a timly manner and doing it on the last possible day was/is a SUSPENSION for the rest of the month. Thats right, just a quick call from the CP(voicemail) saying to get the test done or else. Look on my sked and I'm out for the month. Now, can't get ahold of him(left 4 messages), looking for an explanation. Assistant CP however, is working on it. Wow this is the biggest CF i've had in my 9+ years of flying. Mabye this is the push in the back I need to get out of this business, who knows.

Unhappy an PO'd

FD75

 

[Oakum_Boy]

Enjoy the time off and getting your money back when you win the grievance.