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What is the Purpose of Airline Pilot Unions?

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Eagle757shark

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 31, 2006
Posts
575
Folks I've been in the airline industry a good spell. At AirTran the pilots are looking at possibly switching unions. I'm starting this thread to get a perspective of what pilots feel the purpose of a union is. I will lead off with a few questions.

1. Do we think the purpose of a union is to only negotiate a new pay rate for us every three to four years?

2. Is the purpose of a union to get you out of trouble when a mistake is made?

3. Is the purpose of a union to ensure pilots are allowed to work in a safe environment with decent work rules, compensation, and benefits?

As we live in a world that is always evolving, what are your honest thoughts on a pilot's union. As we go forward in this industry, I think it is time the ALPA's, NPA's, APA's, Teamsters, and SWAPA's of this industry sit down and take a look at what is the role of a pilot union in the 21st century. I believe there is definitely a role for our unions to play in this industry. But have the unions evolved and caught up with the 21st century going forward? I believe this is our challenge and we as pilots need to make sure our leaders are prepared to face these challenges going forward. What are your thoughts?
 
Unions only get onto company property once management is no longer willing or able to put the pilots' interests on an equal footing with financial interests. At that point, the pilots realize they need someone else looking out for their interests. This can't be done alone: individual pilots are easy targets for management, one can be hung and left out to dry very easily. A union is simply the easiest way for the pilots to pool their resources - money, time, ideas, talents - to represent their interests. This includes negotiating fair compensation, representation in disciplinary matters, maximizing quality of life, ensuring that safety isn't left behind in the drive for profitability, etc. The union will be effective in obtaining these things in direct portion to how badly the membership wants improvements in these things and is willing to invest time & money in the union.

In my experience, a lot of management antipathy towards unions is not merely financial; I think many take it as a personal slap in the face because the workers are explicitly saying, "I don't trust you to look out for my interests." At Horizon, you could see that a lot of middle management took it personally and developed a vindictive streak in response to the pilots unionizing. This manifests itself in all sorts of petty behavior, which of course hardens the pilots attitudes toward the company. At SWA, the pilots unionizing early on and with management's encouragement prevented this dynamic from ever starting, with benefits that continue today.
 
BTW, I realize I didn't answer the second portion of your question, regarding how unions need to evolve. I need a little more time to think over my response.

Good discussion to have, but exactly the kind of thread that never lasts long at flightinfo before the flamers and trolls show up. When flying the line I really do wonder who these people are; if pilots were all as stupid and petty as flightinfo would seem to indicate, I think I'd go back into single-pilot freight.
 
"We don't want to kill the golden goose, we just want to choke it by the neck until it gives us every last egg."
 
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Read(or re-read) "Flying the Line" part one....That will clarify for you what the purpose of a union is. Unfortunately, at this point ALPA, SWAPA, IPA, NPA, APA, IBT etc have become the silver spoon, over-priveledged, under-qualified, I want mine now, suburban-american flying club.....Very little semblance to a real "Labor" union
 
It is ironic that a discussion would last this long without one mention of seniority. ALPA would be proud.
 
It is ironic that a discussion would last this long without one mention of seniority. ALPA would be proud.
Ok, don't be afraid to address an issue that is a vital part of this discussion. Let's tread on it lightly though. How do we view ourselves as airline pilots? Are we Blue collar labor or are we White collar management? Does seniority affect how you view yourself among the two. It is definitely something I have noticed in the cockpit. Senority has given us a sort of vesting in our airlines. We know unlike management, you can't just leave major airline x and make a lateral move to major airline y without starting all over. Does this effect unity among 21st century airline pilots? Has the "meism" effect taken over? We are allowing outsourcing of jobs like there is no tomorrow. Will this industry eventually turn into contract pilots where it is every pilot for himself? When several major airlines terminated pilot pensions, why wasn't that the line in the sand drawn that brought 21st century unions together for a cause? Where are 21st century pilot unions going, and how effective will they be?
 
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Amen, tico.

And what is really surprising is that the issues that faced Dave Behncke and the founders of ALPA are the same issues we face today...pilot pushing, whipsawing, fatigue, etc. etc.

And those are just the safety issues.
 
Ok, don't be afraid to address an issue that is a vital part of this discussion. Let's tread on it lightly though. How do we view ourselves as airline pilots? Are we Blue collar labor or are we White collar management? Does seniority affect how you view yourself among the two. It is definitely something I have noticed in the cockpit. Senority has given us a sort of vesting in our airlines. We know unlike management, you can't just leave major airline x and make a lateral move to major airline y without starting all over. Does this effect unity among 21st century airline pilots? Has the "meism" effect taken over? We are allowing outsourcing of jobs like there is no tomorrow. Will this industry eventually turn into contract pilots where it is every pilot for himself? When several major airlines terminated pilot pensions, why wasn't that the line in the sand drawn that brought 21st century unions together for a cause? Where are 21st century pilot unions going, and how effective will they be?


All very good questions. And frankly without defining seniority (or completely rejecting it) these questions have no foundation. Seniority removes any consideration about merit based progression. We either have merit progression like management or we have seniority that prevents competition.

ALPA has tried to have both and has abandoned the principle of a fixed seniority. ALPA has the perfect pyramid exploitation scam. ALPA is the whipsaw.
 
Folks I've been in the airline industry a good spell. At AirTran the pilots are looking at possibly switching unions. I'm starting this thread to get a perspective of what pilots feel the purpose of a union is. I will lead off with a few questions.

1. Do we think the purpose of a union is to only negotiate a new pay rate for us every three to four years?

2. Is the purpose of a union to get you out of trouble when a mistake is made?

3. Is the purpose of a union to ensure pilots are allowed to work in a safe environment with decent work rules, compensation, and benefits?

As we live in a world that is always evolving, what are your honest thoughts on a pilot's union. As we go forward in this industry, I think it is time the ALPA's, NPA's, APA's, Teamsters, and SWAPA's of this industry sit down and take a look at what is the role of a pilot union in the 21st century. I believe there is definitely a role for our unions to play in this industry. But have the unions evolved and caught up with the 21st century going forward? I believe this is our challenge and we as pilots need to make sure our leaders are prepared to face these challenges going forward. What are your thoughts?



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