What is the difference

[A Squared]

Again, I can't help but remember the bullet holes and broken bones of Jessica Lynch.

Interesting what you remember, or more to the point what you don't remember.

You don't seem to remember that when they actually examined Jessica, it turned out there were no bullet holes. And you don't seem to recall that her bones were broken when her truck crashed in the ambush.

I'm betting that you remember that she went down firing until she ran out of ammo, but that you don't remember the part where she claims she never fired her rifle in the attack

The memory is a fascinating thing.

 

[CLCAP]

Wherafter she addmits herself that the Iraqui doctors treated her for her wounds and actually helped us finding her - the memory sure is a peculiar thing!!

 

[Big Duke Six]

Back to the thread guys....

Jarhead,

You are kidding right? You honestly want to sit there, in your make believe world, and try to tell us that Iraqi prisoners will rat out their buddies regarding details of their terrorist networks inside Iraq if we would just put them on featherbeds and serve them tea and "strumpets"? You'd better take another hit and go to Taco Bell for some munchies. You're high.

You and every other person out there railing against our "inhuman" treatment of these prisoners are living in a fantasy world. I hate to be the one to break the news to you, but pampering prisoners is not the way it works in real life. Sure, we would all like to think otherwise. You cry out that these guys were HUMILIATED? "Oh my God, what have we done? We have humiliated these Iraqi prisoners!!!! Can't do that, heads must roll!" You expose to the world that you are a chump, incapable of doing what needs to be done to ensure the safety of not just our troops over there, but the safety of every man, woman and child in our country. You think that our treatment of these guys in order to soften them up for interrogation was inhumane? How inhumane is attacking a supply convoy manned by civilians? The point of asking is to clue you in to the fact that these guys don't understand "humane". You want us to believe that if we'll just treat them humanely, they'll talk? Get a grip sir. No we don't want to sink to their level, but that is all they understand.

I hate to sound like Jack Nicholson, but you and all the other ninnies out there like you just can't handle the truth. If you had ANY idea at all about what is really going on in this war, you'd see how sick and destructive your ideas are. If nudity and homosexuality particulary offends Arab men, then great, let's use it against them. If that's what it takes, and I'm sure it does, then great, so be it. You need to understand this, that this is a war and Americans are being killed over there by these @ssholes. Bush and Rumsfeld can't say that, but you and other liberal punkies will force them to find scapegoats. I'm sure the enlisted guys and women working in the prison and who are now possibly facing charges appreciate your concern for the militants in Iraq who are doing all they can to ensure democracy doesn't take hold there.

Yes, we are liberating their country, but in spite of you these guys in the prison likely won't be participating in the celebration of democracy when it finally happens.

 

[jarhead]

Mr. Big Duke Six

You are a fool on a fools errand. You resort to name calling and condoscending language rather than exchange ideas. You'd rather hurl insults, than have a dialog. It so happens I disagree with you on this matter, as well as almost every sane and balanced American. Even your President is on my side on this. Is he also smoking crack and living in a make believe world? Is Don Rumsfeld Smoking crack? Is General Meyers smoking crack? They must be, as they also see this abuse an abhorent to military rules, and civilian sensibilities, and the values of most non crack smoking Americans. Wake up and smell the coffee.

I have no time for you, or your kind.

 

[Big Duke Six]

OK, that was a little harsh maybe but I was in a hurry. As I said, they have to say they are repulsed, but that's how it works.

I couldn't help but notice that you sidestepped the issues again. So, once again, if nudity and homosexuality particulary offends Arab men, then great, let's use it against them. If that's what it takes, and I'm sure it does, then great, so be it. I have no problem with it as long as they are shooting at us. Many of those prisoners probably know who is doing the shooting. We need information right?

You want us to turn tail and run. I agree we should increasingly be utilizing enlightened Iraqi's to fight these battles. You act as if they all understand democracy already. They don't. They have little collective memory, if they ever had any knowledge of it at all, of what it means to have everyone participate in the running of their country. It is going to take time. Frankly, it pi$$es me off that we haven't used more Iraqi's to get things done. Part of the problem is that I am sure it is extremely difficult to figure out who can be trusted. I think we're headed in the right direction from what I hear from my friends over there.

I see your views on this as being primarily politically motivated. I am sure you don't value the lives of militants in prison as much as you value the lives of American soldiers over there. If you can't see through your politics enough to at least speak out on the side of right, then you really need to smell some coffee too.

 

[jarhead]

Big Duke Six

I have voted solidly republican for forty years now. Sorry to burst the balloon that my posts are politically motivated. I see wrong as wrong. I initially supported the war in Iraq, but gradually have come to see it for what it was. I was lied to about "yellow cake", I was lied to about stockpiles of WMD. Now, even David Kay, who was on board with the administration initially, has concluded that there were no WMD when we initiated hostile action. Then the mission changed. It was no longer to disarm Iraq of WMD,(there were none) but to liberate the people. They increasingly seem to resent our being there, in their country, and are killing foreign soldiers in their land, the same as you and I would do if an invader occupied America. Now, since the Iraqi people don't seem to want democracy, we have the spectre of U.S. soldiers doing to them the stuff Saddam did to them. Round 'em up, and jail them with no due process. And you wonder why we are not loved? No, I am not in love with John Kerry, but I have come to view Bush as an idiot, with ideologs and extreme right wing as his henchmen.

For the first time in forty years, I will be voting for a democrat, and one I don't even like. The other choice of four more years of Bush is even more distasteful to me than Kerry. I am not alone in this switch of blind allegience to an idealog. Many I know are changing their view of the current occupant of the White House.

 

[bart]

Jarhead,

I am going to assume from your name that you were a member of the USMC. I am curious if you have ever heard the term "fixing the battlefield". If you have not, I will fill you in on what it means: Fixing the Battlefield means siezing the initiative and setting the geographic place of where the battle will be fought. You can make all the statements about WMD, yellow cake, that you were lied to, and whatever other injustices that were thrust upon you all that you want, at the end of the day, the action in Iraq was simply fixing the battlefield.

The strategy has been a resounding success, as large scale terrorist operations have not been focused on the geographic United States, they have been focused on a well armed, trained and equipped force in the Middle East. At the end of the day, as a former soldier and later officer, I am glad to see that someone had the cajones to post a major combat force in the middle east.

We are at war my friend. Maybe you think it will stop if we fold the tents and head home, I think that will only embolden the enemy. Who is the enemy? Read up on fundamentalist islam, specifically the wahabbi arm of the religion. They are well funded and organized and have shown a talent for subverting governments. They fear the West and most specifically freedom and want to see the world return to the way it was in about 670 AD.

They are willing to kill innocent civilians by the hundreds to do it. How do you deal with people like this?

You seem to be outraged at how we are handling it, so how would you handle it? I agree with the way it is being handled, only I would have already killed Assad of Syria. I think we need to be a bit more aggressive with Saudi Arabia too.

I am interested to hear your ideas.

 

[enigma]

Re: Big Duke Six

No, I am not in love with John Kerry, but I have come to view Bush as an idiot, with ideologs and extreme right wing as his henchmen.

For the first time in forty years, I will be voting for a democrat, and one I don't even like. The other choice of four more years of Bush is even more distasteful to me than Kerry. I am not alone in this switch of blind allegience to an idealog. Many I know are changing their view of the current occupant of the White House.

Jarhead, your own words say that your allegience is blind, meaning that your words mean nothing. Too bad.

BTW, If you were a 40 year Republican, you would not be able to vote for Kerry. I can understand a true conservative Republican voting for someone other than Bush, but a 40 year Republican would never vote for a flip-flopping, no-core, gold-digging, war crime committing, soldier hating, northeastern liberal.

I may not vote Bush, but I dang sure would never vote for a man who is to the left of Ted Kennedy.

You may be letting your hatred of Bush cloud your mind.

enigma

 

[enigma]

Jarhead,

I am going to assume from your name that you were a member of the USMC. I am curious if you have ever heard the term "fixing the battlefield". If you have not, I will fill you in on what it means: Fixing the Battlefield means siezing the initiative and setting the geographic place of where the battle will be fought. You can make all the statements about WMD, yellow cake, that you were lied to, and whatever other injustices that were thrust upon you all that you want, at the end of the day, the action in Iraq was simply fixing the battlefield.

The strategy has been a resounding success, as large scale terrorist operations have not been focused on the geographic United States, they have been focused on a well armed, trained and equipped force in the Middle East. At the end of the day, as a former soldier and later officer, I am glad to see that someone had the cajones to post a major combat force in the middle east.

We are at war my friend. Maybe you think it will stop if we fold the tents and head home, I think that will only embolden the enemy. Who is the enemy? Read up on fundamentalist islam, specifically the wahabbi arm of the religion. They are well funded and organized and have shown a talent for subverting governments. They fear the West and most specifically freedom and want to see the world return to the way it was in about 670 AD.

They are willing to kill innocent civilians by the hundreds to do it. How do you deal with people like this?

You seem to be outraged at how we are handling it, so how would you handle it? I agree with the way it is being handled, only I would have already killed Assad of Syria. I think we need to be a bit more aggressive with Saudi Arabia too.

I am interested to hear your ideas.

Bart, Dude, What a post. I may slightly disagree with you on the morality of prisoner treatment, but all I can say to this post is: BRAVO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Cheers,
enigma

 

[jarhead]

Well, with a vote for Nader, you may as well stay home and save the gas money. There are no other choices in my view. I am not alone. This country is almost evenly divided in the two camps of Bush and Kerry. I am not a looney who just votes for who has the nicest bumper sticker or slickest TV add. You state that since I have been a Republican for 40 years, and now am going to vote for a liberal, that I never have been a Republican. Well, that's your choice. I believe the Republican party (at least at the presidential level) has left me, and become extreme right wing, Neocon controlled people in the administration and in the cabinet. Ashcroft is taking the country away from the rule of law, and denying due process which in my view, is not constitutional.

 

[jarhead]

BART

Bart,

You are correct in your assumption implied by my pen name that I once served in “The Green Machine”. And yes, I know what it is to fix the battlefield. Hitler also fixed the battlefield when he invaded Poland, France, and Russia. Adolph still gets no accolades from me for his militarism and quest for the thousand year Reich. .

Your analysis that we have not had any further attacks on our soil due to our invasion of Iraq is about as coherent as my stating that there have been no further attacks on our soil due to the fact that I started drinking skim milk. I doubt that either theory is valid. As much as many pilots on these boards complain about the impositions placed by the TSA on further highjacking’s, and bin Laden bars being installed on all aircraft, and frequent shut downs of places like LAX, might have a lot to do with the lack of other attacks….so far. The secretary of homeland security has stated that in his view, we will be attacked again, that that is a certainty. I’d like to see our forces used in a better manner than trying to install a government of a democracy in a country like Iraq, to be deployed in areas that would help mitigate the threats of terror. Our treasury needs to fund more and better border security with better and more customs agents, and armed forces and predator aircraft flying our own borders in surveillance. Where terrorist train and exist, yeah, lets go get ‘em. But to abuse citizens of a sovereign nation, is not in the best tradition of America. We have no business being in Iraq, and never did. We (Bush &Company) have now created a monster we cannot control.

We are at war against Terror. We have too few forces in Afghanistan, where one of the biggest nests of terror is still in action, and OBL is still on the loose. Al Queda and the Taliban are the ones being suppressed, but our forces are fighting a war of insurgency by people we invaded, who never attacked us. Saddam was evil, I am glad he’s gone. It would be nice if Castro were gone, should we fix the battlefield there also? While we are at it, why not North Korea too? Kim Il Sung is an SOB also. This war of pre-emption is a bad idea. Isn’t that what Japan did to us at Pearl Harbor…..fix the battlefield? Should we seize Saudi Arabia too, in your view? That's where OBL and 16 of the 19 9-11 highjackers came from. Fix that battle field too, and while we're at it, sieze their oil fields. Our gas costs too much now, right?

Yes, America is at war, but at war in the wrong place. The adventure we are in now in Iraq is called nation building. Bush has opened the doors to recruit another thousand OBL’s, as we are almost universally hated around the world.

 

[sqwkvfr]

I believe the Republican party (at least at the presidential level) has left me, and become extreme right wing, Neocon controlled people in the administration and in the cabinet. Ashcroft is taking the country away from the rule of law, and denying due process which in my view, is not constitutional.

There is no way in hell that a Republican wrote this.

I don't believe you for one second, sir.

 

[enigma]

You state that since I have been a Republican for 40 years, and now am going to vote for a liberal, that I never have been a Republican.

I didn't say you had never been a Republican, I said that 40 year Republican would never vote for Kerry.

I believe the Republican party (at least at the presidential level) has left me, and become extreme right wing, Neocon controlled people in the administration and in the cabinet. Ashcroft is taking the country away from the rule of law, and denying due process which in my view, is not constitutional.

True conservatives know that neocons are not right wing. Neocons are just the eastern liberal wing of the Republican party. They share their worldview with the eastern liberal Democratics.

True conservatives are as mad at President Bush as are you, the exception being that a true conservative would never vote for a European Socialist like Kerry.

I'm beginning to agree with sqwkyvfr, you write like a seminar caller speaks.

enigma

 

[jarhead]

sqwkvfr

You are correct, a Republican did not write that. An ex-republican wrote it. Look, you will not change my mind about these things, and I know I will not change your mind. That's the great thing about America; these things are decided at the ballot box. We shall just have to agree to dis-agree. Our differences on this will be decided for us in November, by the collective votes of those who choose to use their constitutional franchise, and cast a vote.

 

[bart]

Jarhead,

I am going to boil your words down to two strategies:

1) Fortify and secure our borders

and

2) The enemy is in Afghanistan, go find em, fix em and kill em.


I will have to say that they sound attractive, however, they are most likely doomed to failure. Let's start with number one:

1) Enemy has the initiative
2) Vast resources must be deployed
3) Easily exploited (fixed positions, routines and procedures, easily observed and studied for weakness)
4) No pressure on enemy bases of support
5) Difficulty in maintaining high state of vigilance in absence of open hosilities

Number two:

1) No pressure on sources of financial, material and political support
2) Terrain favors defense
3) History of fierce resistance to centralized authority
4) Unwillingness of Pakistan to allow thorough operations in their country

I would be happy to debate any of the above points with you. I have alot of friends serving in Afghanistan right now, and not one of them complains of lack of support or resources. They say more troops will not solve their problems. Being able to foray into Pakistan and deny the enemy sanctuary would solve their problems. Two of them have likened the situation in Afghanistan to Vietnam in that the enemy only operates close to the border and pulls back when a superior force approaches.

Given that we do not expect the political situation in Pakistan to change anytime soon, I would expect the situation in Afghanistan to be unfavorable for major combat operations for some time. The root of this problem and the real bases of support for terrorism lie with the oil rich countries in the Middle East. It is there that the real war will be won or lost. To the degree that success in Iraq takes place, there will be (and already has been) tremendous pressure on other countries to clean up their act.

Case in point are the recent security ops in Saudi Arabia. Can you recall open gunfights between govt forces and terrorists in Saudi Arabia before the invasion? Seems someone got a message and is doing something about it. I keep going back to: If you think this is all about WMD and yellow cakes (though you may need only look as far as Syria to find what is left of any of it), you really need to step back and look for a bigger strategy.

 

[sqwkvfr]

Re: sqwkvfr

You are correct, a Republican did not write that. An ex-republican wrote it.

Well, best of luck to ya, my good man. I just hope that for both your sake and for the sake of the Democrat party, your moderate voice isn't drowned out by the WTO rioters, militant pro-abortion activists, anarchists, socialists and other highly vocal fringe groups.

 

[Dubya]

What is so rediculous....

....is that the only reason we can argue about any of this is because the media runs this country. You can hate Bush and Kerry and conservatives and liberals...but at the end of the day...they are the way they are because of CNN, MSNBC, CNBC, FOXNews, CSPAN, CSPAN2 (are you serious?), 60 Minutes, Dateline, 2020.....and on and on.
My President can't do his job because of the media

The CIA, FBI, etc...can't do their jobs because of the media.

I don't want to know what is going on inside a prison in the middle of friggin Iraq.

I don't need Geraldo running around on the front lines.

I don't need a scrolling recap of the same story for 24 straight hours.
The media is out of control and they run our government...period.

I want my government and my country's military doing what they need to do to prevent my country from being attacked. Seems to me that is the case...whether or not you agree with the sequence of events that led us there. Go read the post with all of the quotes from both sides of the eisles concerning Iraq. We are there...we need to be there...and we need not stop there.

Sure we need checks and balances....but it has spiraled completely out of control.

I'm not going to get into the debate about morals when it is involving.....WAR....hello? It's war.

W

 

[Big Duke Six]

OK, had to go do some stuff with the kids for a bit. I'm back.

Several things:

Dubya, you hit it right on the head. We're crippled militarily because of the media. In everything we do now, we need to ensure we will meet the approval of John and Jane Q. Public before we do it. "Oh, thugs are holed up in a mosque are they? Well, we'd better let this play in the media back home for a while, and make sure everyone in Massachusetts understands what the rules are before we take it apart or there will be hell to pay when Kennedy sees what we did, spins it and puts it on CNN." I don't know who let the pics out from the prison, but I would rather let them do their jobs there and get results. I trust us.

I can't stand it when people attack us in the media for intelligence failures, then scream again and attack the methods used to get the results they demanded in the first place. The hypocrisy kills me. We are still on the moral high ground because our cause is just. WE have no intention of occupying their country. We don't want it. We DO need to get rid of the people standing in our way. If it takes insulting some suspicious Iraqi's along the way, well then, they were on the wrong side. They made their choice. I'm confident of that.

This conversion to democracy may take awhile, but I believe we are there for the right reasons. Some Iraqi's may not know it yet, but we are. I feel, contrary to what the media wants us to believe, that the average Iraqi wants us to succeed. Of course, you won't see Ted Koppel telling the US public all the things we've accomplished, but he'll happily read the names of the dead to us. No bias there. If he wants to honor people, honor the living soldiers too.

So Jarhead, if you really feel Iraq is better off without us, you just go ahead and vote Kerry. Losing Iraq would be bad enough, but the damage to our national security would be immense, as others have posted earlier. Kerry lacks the heart of a true patriot. So although I'm not 100% happy with Bush either, he'll get my vote.

I personally don't want to hand this country over to terrorists because our president can't stomach the realities of the world.