What is the difference

[bart]

Between this:

"Red Cross: Male prisoners forced to parade around in women's underwear..."

and this:

"Gunfire from Palestinians disguised as women was directed at memorial ceremony at Kissufim junction for Tali Hatuel and her four daughters murdered there by Palestinians terrorists May 2."

It seems that it is not humiliating at all. I see that Arabs actually prefer dressing like women, especially in preparation for battle, so what is the big deal?

 

[Dizel8]

"Gunfire from Palestinians disguised as women was directed at memorial ceremony at Kissufim junction for Tali Hatuel and her four daughters murdered there by Palestinians terrorists May 2."

Of course, if these people were shot, the claim would be, that innocent women were shot in cold blood!

 

[falcon20driver]

I don't get it at all, are country was attacked 2 and a half years ago by these people and now the people putting their lives on the line to protect us from being attacked again are being courtmartialed and could wind up in prison for something silly.

Someone needs to get their prioritys strait, those people wouldn't think twice about cutting the throats of the passengers and pilots on an airplane and flying it into a building and killing thousands of people, they did it once and they will do it again.

 

[MarineGrunt]

I don't get it at all, are country was attacked 2 and a half years ago by these people and now the people putting their lives on the line to protect us from being attacked again are being courtmartialed and could wind up in prison for something silly.

Someone needs to get their prioritys strait, those people wouldn't think twice about cutting the throats of the passengers and pilots on an airplane and flying it into a building and killing thousands of people, they did it once and they will do it again.

***DING-DING-DING!!!***

"Tell him what he's won Johnny............"

Yes the actions of those soldiers were without a doubt wrong. But lets put things into context here... I can tell you one thing for **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** sure, if I got my hands on some of those little (insert word or phrase of choice here) that killed several of my friends over there, well, they'd wish I'd be that nice.

Our Marines/soldiers are dealing with death every day over there. Every day they see one of these a-holes pick off another one of our guys. Some have been seeing it for over a year. Tell me thats not enough for you to want to put a buttstock up side one of their heads.

Again, I'm not saying that any of this is right, but this is war and people do terrible things. I won't begin to be overly critical of these soldiers because I have no idea who these prisoners are or what they did, or what these troops have been through.

Think of what you would have done to a terrorist on September 12, 2001. Now what do you think you would do to someone who just gunned down several of your buddies....

 

[falcon20driver]

I would really like to see what little Jessica Lynch would do to them. I've only read about how they treated her.

 

[MarineGrunt]

I would really like to see what little Jessica Lynch would do to them. I've only read about how they treated her.

She's still waiting for her apology by the way.................................

 

[jarhead]

Falcon20driver

You seem to have some history a bit mixed up, when you say these people attacked us at the World Trade Center.

"These people" from Iraq did NOT attack us. They were Al Queda members of Saudi Arabian heritage, led by Osama binLaden, also a Saudi Arabian national. Many of the people held in that Iraqi prison were civilian detainees, some of who were being held as material witnesses, and not guilty of any crime at all. They were abused, and for you to try to sweep that fact away, by making erronious claims about "those people" being responsible for 9-11, show a great deal of ignorance of facts.

That abuse was just plain WRONG, and there can be no justification for it. Our country is now fighting this war to liberate the Iraqi people, since the original reason for the war (WMD) was in vain. To then abuse people in the same way as Saddam did, brings no meaning at all for the lives being lost over there, Ours or theirs.

 

[MarineGrunt]

Re: Falcon20driver

You seem to have some history a bit mixed up, when you say these people attacked us at the World Trade Center.

"These people" from Iraq did NOT attack us. They were Al Queda members of Saudi Arabian heritage, led by Osama binLaden, also a Saudi Arabian national. Many of the people held in that Iraqi prison were civilian detainees, some of who were being held as material witnesses, and not guilty of any crime at all. They were abused, and for you to try to sweep that fact away, by making erronious claims about "those people" being responsible for 9-11, show a great deal of ignorance of facts.

That abuse was just plain WRONG, and there can be no justification for it. Our country is now fighting this war to liberate the Iraqi people, since the original reason for the war (WMD) was in vain. To then abuse people in the same way as Saddam did, brings no meaning at all for the lives being lost over there, Ours or theirs.

I dont think anyone, at least not me, is trying to justify their actions. The point I was getting at, is given certain circumstances, I can understand them. Again, no one knows who these prisioners were, unless there is some info out there that I am missing. No, they did not fly the planes into the WTC. But many of them ARE terrorists that can come to Iraq to fight the "infidels." Many of them ARE combatants.

It's easy for us to criticise from our living room couch. These soldiers in question will get what they have coming. I however am not going to jump on the daming bandwagon, as I have no idea how much rage these troops had pent up inside.

 

[jarhead]

Look, even Don Rumsfeld, General Myers, and the President of the United States have apologized and condemed this abuse. It crosses all party lines. Senator John McCain, himself tortured and abused in Vietnam understands that this is an atrocity perpetrated by Americans. John McCain would certainly be one who you might say had a "pent up rage". He condems this stuff at Abu Ghriab prison more than anyone.

Sorry, it just won't wash. A pig in a dress is still a pig. The actions of these reservists were an abomination, to every American if you watch the news or read the papers. I can find no one who will in anyway condone or even try to understand these actions. A person does not need specific training in order to understand the nature of evil. It is a serious charactor flaw, and the only remaining questions to be answered is how high up the chain of command that there is culpability. These folks who did this stuff could well be wife beaters and abusers in civilian life at home. They sure looked like they were getting their jollys off, thinking they could abuse people with impunity.

The argument that many of these detainees could well be terrorits does not hold water. There are people every where, including within our own borders who "could" be terroists. They might also be totally innocent. That is why we have civilian and military courts; to make those determinations by the rule of law and evidence. To abuse anyone, before the fact is an egregious afront to humanity, and lowers us all to the same behavior we profess to be against. There is a HUGE difference, in answer to the question that starts this whole thread.

 

[surplus1]

Well said jarhead, but don't expect to get much support for logic or reason.

The right wing as has already begun to circle the wagons, justify whatever they can and cover up whatever ever is possible, just as they were obviously trying to do before somebody spilled the beans and they got caught.

As this thread expands you will undoubtedly get more and more excuses and "reasons" why this abomination was "OK" because of what has happened to our people from time to time.

No one in the right wing will remember that WE invaded THEIR country for bogus reasons invented by leaders determined to flex our military might and impose their own crusade. As I write this I'm listening to our President giving yet another "sermon" in an effort to bolster his own political fortune. It is obviously nothing more than a careful strategy for damage control now that they have been exposed and he finds himself in political jeopardy.

This is a black mark on our country and our servicemen that will endure for many years to come. The low ranking servicemen who carried out these acts will become the scapegoats and the leaders who set the tone that made this possible, begining with the President himself, will remain above it all.

Bush's words ring hollow and self-serving. He is right about one thing, this abomination does NOT reflect the mores of a majority of the American people or the members of our armed services. The sad part is that it DOES reflect the attitude of his administration. The only thing that he (GWB) and his top echelon has managed to do successfully so far is alienate our few friends and put a blemish, a stain, on the credibility and character of the United States of America. One that it will take a generation to correct.

It's shameful, it's disgusting and what we have seen so far is apparently only the "tip of the iceberg" with respect to what has really been going on. The kids that carried out these acts were wrong, but the leaders that set these policies are dispicable.

What can we do about it? Simple, exercise our democracy and get these people out of the White House and removed from the leadership of our country before its too late. Their behavior may play well in Crawford, Texas and the like but there is little doubt that it is extremely damaging to our country as a whole.

The terrorist attack on our country was dam*able and our response totally justifiable and supported by almost every country and every people, excepting the perpetrators, throughout the world. The administration has managed to literally blow that advantage, turn it all around and place our country in an untenable position that is supported by NOONE other than the right wing extremists of which Bush and company are the leaders.

Those that we have entrusted with the stewardship of our government and our country have failed us miserably. The crucifiction of a handful of low ranking servicemen and women will not "wash their hands" of culpability for the policies that led to this aberration. The only "damage control" that will work now is to get rid of them. A politically expedient "apology" is not enough. It is time for real Americans to exercise the power of their vote and get rid of the problem in our midst, the Bush administration. We can't "put it behind us and move on"; we need to eliminate it, period.

 

[Swass]

"The right wing as has already begun to circle the wagons, justify whatever they can and cover up whatever ever is possible, just as they were obviously trying to do before somebody spilled the beans and they got caught."


And the Dem's were just hoping that something like this would happen so they might have a chance in Nov. It's incredible that something bad has to happen to give the Dem's a leg up or even something to talk about. If it's bad for America it's good for the Dem's, I honestly believe the liberals think this. Sad, sad..

 

[jarhead]

If things are bad for America, and the GOP is at the helm of the ship, where else do you start to set it straight? By keeping "the gang that can't shoot straight in charge". When it's messed up, just like in baseball, you fire the manager. GWB presides over this mess, and it's time, the collective American public plays the role of Donald Trump in November. "You're Fired", GWB. Time to change managers.

 

[bart]

I have heard many a story where so-called "abominations" and "affronts to humanity" have been used to elicit information in an attempt to save American lives. I can understand soldiers wanting to have prisoners rat out their pals involved in the guerrilla fighting. I know it would take a fair amount of restraint and discipline not to use force to get that information.

That being said, other than the sodomy with the broomstick, I have not heard of anything that goes much beyond what I have seen in fraternity hazings. Not to say it is right, but certainly blown out of proportion.

Where are the dental tools, amputation saws and electrical equipment, along with everyday power tools that would really do an effective job?

I think you have too many sissy pants little girls making calls. For crying out loud, show me someone with bruises, broken bones or burns if you want me to believe torture has taken place. Making a couple of guys lie together naked is not my idea of fun, but it is far from torture.

I can tell you right now, that if I were in a situation where a prisoner might have info that would save my troops lives, I would happily sacrifice my career by doing what it took to get quick information out of him or have him take action to help me out. You can speak in platitudes all you want, but I doubt many here would do different.

 

[jarhead]

Bart

You are way out of step not only with our country, but with the rest of the world as well. Being humane does not make someone a "sissy pants" Rumsfeld stated that the worst of the pictures are yet to come. There have been beating deaths that are murder. And this is to show Iraqi people how much better they will be under "democracy"?

 

[bart]

There have been beating deaths that are murder.

Really? Tell me where to read up on this.

 

[jarhead]

My god, man, did you not see it? It was stated in the Senate hearings on Friday, and in the house hearings as well, and in reports by the International Red Cross. There is one court martial going on right now of a soldier for a murder of a prisoner in Afghanistan. There have been 27 prisoners who have died while in U.S. custody over the past year, according to General Myers. I WATCHED HIM SAY IT. I don't need a link to know what I heard the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs state in person and under oath before the Senate Armed Services Commitee. If you do a Google search, you no doubt can find it. Out of the 27 deaths, my recollection is that 2 were determined to be justifiable homicides, some were deaths (10 as I recall) are of an undetermined nature, and are being investigated now. Several were deaths from guards shooting prisoners who were trying to escape, and I recall that 2 deaths were confirmed as the result of beatings during interogations.

 

[falcon20driver]

Obviously this poster named jarhead is whacked out of his mind, I think that behind his user name (that he sure as he11 doesn't warrent), he is an Iraqi or an Iraqi lover.

Again, I can't help but remember the bullet holes and broken bones of Jessica Lynch.

 

[jarhead]

And you, sir, are a biggot and a racist of the first order.
I will not continue this dialog with a miscreant such as yourself.
Is an "Iraqi lover" the same as a "n*gger lover" in your enlightend view of the world? Don't bother answering, it's a rhetorical question. I don't suppose you even contemplated that our country and its armed forces are ostensibly at war, to liberate the Iraqi people. I guess that would make every soldier and Marine an "Iraqi lover", since that is the official reason for being there.....you know that don't you. Now doesn't that just pi$$ you off really good?

 

[falcon20driver]

You don't pis me off, I ignore you. What does get me mad is what the Iraqis did to Jessica Lynch after capturing her.

 

[enigma]

Bart, the difference is easy. We are better than the terrorists. I do not believe that the available information shows anything that I consider abuse, but it does show mistreatment. The US has almost always been able to occupy the moral high ground; we have always treated other countries as we desired to be treated. I have a close blood relative in Iraq as we speak, and God forbid, if he was captured, I would expect his captors to treat him humanely. We must take the high road. I am not opposed to intense interrogation of persons reasonably suspected of possessing knowledge of planned attacks, but the pictures I've seen appear to show a bunch of punks hassling the prisoners.

Did anyone else notice that a lot of the pictures were taken by females, and a lot of them include female soldiers? What's up with that? It almost looks like a bunch of feminist soldiers decided to lord it over some males. What were females doing in a high security prison?

Yes Bart, the terrorist are lowlifes. The worldwide media and internationalist movement are also lowlifes, they judge using a double standard. They excuse the actions of the cowards, and condem our actions, no matter how noble. They hate Christians and Jews, America and Israel; we will never gain their approval or grace. It matters not whether we treat their people poorly, or well; they will hate us.

No part of their lowness gives us an excuse to drop to their level, remember, WE'RE BETTER THAN THAT! It's not about them, this is about us, and our soldiers shouldn't have mistreated prisoners.

regards,
enigma

BTW, I do believe Rumsfeld when he says that the investigation was ongoing. I have faith in the good people (the majority) in our military and believe that this would have been properly investigated and the guilty punished with or without the international outcry.