What is the difference between code share and scope?

Cpt Oveur

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When it comes to flying with a certain airline or brand, what is the difference between code share and scope? Whats stopping a company from flying 100 seat planes, selling their own tickets, and also code sharing with a another company, say a legacy carrier?
 

PeanuckleCRJ

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Codesharing and scope are one in the same. Failure to proactively manage/reel in codeshares is the exact same as the failure of small jet scope.
 

dougdrvr

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Obviously, an arbitrator thought there was a difference when deciding on the Midwest pilot grievance?
 

SiuDude

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Obviously, an arbitrator thought there was a difference when deciding on the Midwest pilot grievance?

Or letting Aer Lingus operate an Airbus between IAD and MAD with a United flight number for B-scale wages.
 

WAVIT Inbound

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SkyWest? When have we code shared to get around scope?

I will differ the floor to Republic thank you very much.
 

PeanuckleCRJ

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Obviously, an arbitrator thought there was a difference when deciding on the Midwest pilot grievance?

Midex's scope was seriously lacking. Their section 1 allowed for complete outsourcing. Whoops.

At least the ALPA mag showed everyone smiling on the day they shut their doors.
 

Cpt Oveur

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Ok, so where does the jetBlue and American deal fall in this balance. American stops flying SJU to just about everywhere, and BOS-SFO, in exchange for for allowing its customers to book on those routes?
 

Flyby1206

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Ok, so where does the jetBlue and American deal fall in this balance. American stops flying SJU to just about everywhere, and BOS-SFO, in exchange for for allowing its customers to book on those routes?

First you have to understand that the majority of travel sites and travel agents access airline schedules/availability through Global Distribution Systems (GDS).

Example: AA flt 1234 goes ORD-SEA. AA is the operating carrier (it says AA on the side of the plane) and they are the marketing carrier (it shoes as AA1234 in the GDS system)

AA has a codeshare agreement with Alaska Airlines that allows Alaska to put their airline code (AS) on a given number of seats per flight, and put an Alaska flight number on that flight AA is operating. So that AA1234 might ALSO show up in GDS as AS5678. When a passenger looks on Orbitz the top two choices are AA1234 and AS5678. If they are a frequent flier on Alaska they might book under the AS5678 and get frequent flier miles, points, etc for it even though it is operated by AA.

A "codeshare" allows multiple airlines to put their two letter codes on a flight operated by another carrier. This beneficial because two carriers can get exposure on a route with only one carrier operating the flights, or in the case of ORD-SEA Alaska and AA can both codeshare on all of the partners routes ORD-SEA so that they appear to have double exposure on a route. Following me so far?

In a codeshare agreement the operating carrier (AA, since it is their metal) collects all the revenue from the flight, even the revenue from the people who booked AS5678. Then they distribute a small portion of that cash to Alaska airlines to cover the marketing costs (Alaska would be referred to as the "marketing carrier" in this example).

Now it gets complicated...

Jetblue and AA do not have a codeshare agreement. They have an "interline agreement" which is very close, but not the same. AA is not placing their two letter airline code on any jetblue flights, and jetblue is not placing their code on any AA flights. A customer has to go to either jetblue.com or aa.com to book an interline ticket where for instance they would go BTV-JFK(on jetblue) and JFK-CDG(on AA). Frequent fliers still get some mileage/points, but not as beneficial as if they booked a flight on their particular frequent flier carrier.

APA pilots have a clause in their contract that requires APA approval of any domestic codeshare agreements (Alaska has been approved by APA years ago), and if this approval isnt granted then the whole thing can go to arbitration which gets ugly.

The AA/JB interline agreement has some caveats. An AA frequent flier must book a two leg journey on AA and JB to get points. They cant just fly BTV-JFK(on JB) and get AA points. Also, a JB customer cant just book JFK-CDG(on AA) and get jetblue frequent flier points, they need both carriers in the itinerary.

Will this interline agreement ever develop into a codeshare? My guess is yes, but talk to the APA pilots about that.

Also you mentioned "scope." That is completely different than codeshare/interline agreements. Scope refers to a section of a contract that restricts what aircraft can be flown by who in the name of the company. SWA scope says something to the likes of "All aircraft flown on behalf of Southwest Airlines will be flown by pilots on the SWAPA seniority list." AA and most other legacy carriers scope clauses say "APA pilots will fly everything on behalf of American Airlines EXCEPT 50 seat aircraft and under, and we also grant Eagle to fly 47 CRJ700s as long as they are a wholly owned carrier, and we also allow Eagle to fly 40 ATR-72s." The aircraft that we at Eagle operate all carry the AA airline code when a person looks up the flight in a GDS system. AA4549 ORD-PIA *Operated by American Eagle Airlines.

Hope some of this makes sense, it is a broad generalization and overview of the codeshare/interline/scope crap. It gets really complicated really quick.
 

Speedtape

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Is it more like Smoke and Mirrors, Rope a Dope, or PBS (Pure Bologna Scraps)?
 
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Hamburger

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To simplify the above poster a bit:
Codeshare is what allows American Airlines to sell a ticket (or use miles) to Juneau, a city they do not serve, in exchange for Alaska Airlines getting to sell a ticket to Paris, a city they do not serve. Both carriers get to virtually expand their system in a way that is, for the most part, mutually beneficial for everyone.

Scope is when Horizon Airlines jets are sold to Skywest and operated between Horizon Airlines city pairs with Skywest pilots. In March, it was a Horizon flight in a Horizon plane with Horizon pilots. In April, it's the same flight in the same plane with Skywest pilots.

Codeshare is a construction crew from the next town coming in to help you build a bigger and better house than either of you could build on your own.

Scope is a crew of undocumented illegals coming to your construction site, undercutting your living wage, and putting you out of work.

Regionals exist because they suck on the teat of Scope. They don't have their own networks, and thus have nothing to share. That is the difference. If you've got some cash, they'll paint the plane whatever color you want. They can't stand on their own.
Not bagging on Regional pilots at all. The Major pilots decided decades ago that certain flying was beneath them and let the horse out of the barn. They created the Regionals.
Now that they are finally starting to get it, coupled with the high cost of RJ's, we may finally be working our way back to a world where EVERYONE gets to be mainline, which is what everyone (besides management) really wants, right?
 
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Cpt Oveur

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How many jobs would Delta Air Lines have saved if they did not code share with Alaska out of Seattle? They gave almost their entire domestic feed of their international flights to another company. American caved on routes in the northeast and Caribbean to jetBlue. Is this not caving on scope in the name of codeshare?

What happens when some of these regional feeders start buying larger airframes with money from their own checkbook on routes that legacies start giving up on? This isn't challenging scope anymore, it's a code share deal. To what end will it reach?

Look at the Japanese carriers, or other parts of Europe. The feeders will soon start flying equipment that the legacy retired just days earlier..
 

Hamburger

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I don't claim to know the specifics of the deal.
I am pretty sure that Delta made a go at Alaska on their own at one point and it failed. If a full half of their feed out of Seattle comes from cities that Delta doesn't serve. Win-Win.
I don't recall an instance where going to war with a carrier on their turf ended up saving jobs.

Codeshare is selling tickets on routes that you DON'T operate.
Scope is sub-contracting routes that you DO operate.
Very different.
 

AntiJedi

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Scope is when Horizon Airlines jets are sold to Skywest and operated between Horizon Airlines city pairs with Skywest pilots. In March, it was a Horizon flight in a Horizon plane with Horizon pilots. In April, it's the same flight in the same plane with Skywest pilots.

Codeshare is a construction crew from the next town coming in to help you build a bigger and better house than either of you could build on your own.

Scope is a crew of undocumented illegals coming to your construction site, undercutting your living wage, and putting you out of work.

Regionals exist because they suck on the teat of Scope. They don't have their own networks, and thus have nothing to share. That is the difference.

Not bagging on Regional pilots at all. The Major pilots decided decades ago that certain flying was beneath them and let the horse out of the barn. They created the Regionals.

Your post makes no sense at all. First you say that Horizon flying was outsourced SkyWest, then you say that regionals "suck on the teat" and "don't have their own network". So, how could it be Horizon's flying that was being outsourced if they are just sucking the teat, using someone else's network?

Also, your comparison of codeshare vs. scope is lousy, at best. While you'd be right in that a crew would be coming over to help build the house, it'd still be the same house. Using your logic, with the DL/AS codeshare, instead of both airlines filling an AS 737, they would fill an AS 767, which doesn't exist.

Using the term of undocumented illegals is not only in poor taste, it's just downright wrong. Using your house analogy, if you aren't going to make a deadline, you sub-contract out the work which you can't get done in time, or which you won't be able to do in the first place. General contractors do this all of the time by contracting in electricians, plumbers, and in some cases general laborers. If you were to talk to one if these guys like that, it's guaranteed you'd wake up in the hospital the next day.
 

Hamburger

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Your post makes no sense at all. First you say that Horizon flying was outsourced SkyWest, then you say that regionals "suck on the teat" and "don't have their own network". So, how could it be Horizon's flying that was being outsourced if they are just sucking the teat, using someone else's network
Because Horizon is Wholly Owned by Alaska. Same team. It's not possible to outsource IN HOUSE, now, is it?

Using the term of undocumented illegals is not only in poor taste, it's just downright wrong. Using your house analogy, if you aren't going to make a deadline, you sub-contract out the work which you can't get done in time, or which you won't be able to do in the first place. General contractors do this all of the time by contracting in electricians, plumbers, and in some cases general laborers. If you were to talk to one if these guys like that, it's guaranteed you'd wake up in the hospital the next day.

This falls apart because the skywest/horizon situation isn't an Electrician doing work for a General. It's a the General replacing a Union Electrician who is already on the job with a Non Union Electrician (home depot hero) who will work for less.
Where did you come up with this deadline nonsense? These routes have been operated by horizon pilots in horizon planes for years.
The same planes on the same routes with undercutting pilots does NOT meet any kind of deadline.
Also, your comparison of codeshare vs. scope is lousy, at best. While you'd be right in that a crew would be coming over to help build the house, it'd still be the same house. Using your logic, with the DL/AS codeshare, instead of both airlines filling an AS 737, they would fill an AS 767, which doesn't exist.
No. The 'house' is a Delta 767. Delta can't fill it with people who live in Alaska. They tried and failed. It costs a LOT to have scheduled service to Petersburg. Likewise, Alaska Airlines doesn't have a 767 and doesn't go to Paris.
Without codeshare, how does a person who lives in Petersburg, AK get to Paris? Without codeshare, how does Delta fill that 767 to Paris? Are there 300 people every single day in Salt Lake that want to go to Paris?
If Delta could fill that plane on their own, they wouldn't need feed from anyone else, would they? If Alaska could support a 767 to Paris on their own, don't you think they would by some and start service?

Now if Alaska wanted to hire out skywest to move people from Petersburg to Seattle, something mainline guys had been doing for decades, then you'd have a scope issue.

Moving passengers from cities that airline A doesn't serve to places that Airline B doesn't serve is Codeshare.
Using Airline B to move passengers to and from cities that Airline A serves is Scope. They are very different.
I can't dumb it down any further.
You're not alone. Plenty of people don't grasp the concept, that is the very reason it exists.
 
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AntiJedi

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Because Horizon is Wholly Owned by Alaska. Same team. It's not possible to outsource IN HOUSE, now, is it?

Since you say that all regionals suck on the teat of the mother airline, and practically all them parasites of the industry, and that AS has a FPD contract with Alaska for flying that Alaska wants to do, but can't do itself with the aircraft it has; whether or not they are owned by the same holding company, no matter how you look at it, it's still outsourcing.

DGS and ComAir, owned by Delta, and held internally by the holding company, is still outsourcing.

This falls apart because the skywest/horizon situation isn't an Electrician doing work for a General. It's a the General replacing a Union Electrician who is already on the job with a Non Union Electrician (home depot hero) who will work for less.
Where did you come up with this deadline nonsense? These routes have been operated by horizon pilots in horizon planes for years.
The same planes on the same routes with undercutting pilots does NOT meet any kind of deadline.

And you completely miss the point, and completely ignore the scenario that you yourself set up. And besides, aren't those Horizon pilots just just sucking the teat by undercutting Alaska pilots?

As for the deadline, again, you used a house building analogy. Apparently, you have no idea how construction contracting works.

Now if Alaska wanted to hire out skywest to move people from Petersburg to Seattle, something mainline guys had been doing for decades, then you'd have a scope issue.

Moving passengers from cities that airline A doesn't serve to places that Airline B doesn't serve is Codeshare.
Using Airline B to move passengers to and from cities that Airline A serves is Scope. They are very different.
I can't dumb it down any further.
You're not alone. Plenty of people don't grasp the concept, that is the very reason it exists.

Hmm? I never said I didn't understand what either are. I was simply dissecting your rather poor analogy. Attacking me and calling names from a simple rebuttal is rather sad on your part.
 

Hamburger

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Please quote where I called you names. Oh right, I didn't.

Many don't understand it, which is exactly why it is a problem.

The undercutter is coming for your job and if you don't stop him, nobody will.
 
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