What is an Old Pilot Worth

[mobie]

[FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica]posted 11th December 2005 19:43 [/FONT] [FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica]Bruce Willis/Demi Moore Gulfstream pilot wins $53 mil. in Los Angeles Court[/FONT] [FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica]9:20 p.m. December 9, 2005

LOS ANGELES – The company that once managed a private jet owned by Demi Moore and her ex-husband, Bruce Willis, must pay a pilot $53.8 million for firing him, a jury ruled.
The Superior Court jury ruled Wednesday in favor of Doyle D. Baker against PrivatAir Inc. After a three-week trial, jurors found the Connecticut-based company defamed and wrongfully terminated Baker in July 2004.

"The jury found that Mr. Baker's age, 63, was the motivating factor in his termination," Baker's attorney, Michael Kelly, said.

The San Bernardino pilot had been hired nine years earlier to fly the Gulfstream II jet owned by Moore and Willis, who were not named in the lawsuit.

His lawsuit alleges that he was defamed and eventually fired after PrivatAir took over management of the jet in 2002.

A call left after-hours to Joseph Maya, the Fairfield, Con., attorney who represented PrivatAir, was not immediately returned

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[FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica][Last edited by XERTO on 11th December 2005 at 22:00][/FONT]

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| From: BERLIN | Registered: Dec 2005 | Status: Offline | IP: Logged[/FONT]

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Good for him!

PrivatAir was known for those manuevers.

 

[hawkerflyer]

Happy birthday to him...

 

[moving2vegas]

Good for him?...really

Good for him!

PrivatAir was known for those manuevers.

Yeah OK...great for him. Bad for everyone else. 53 million for a 63 year old pilot falls in the realm of ridiculous. It's like the fat people that tried to sue Mcdonalds. You can bet PrivatAir will never pay anything close to that amount anyway. They will tie it up appeals court for years until the guy settles for much less, then their insurance will pay the "undisclosed amount". Outrageous lawsuits like this set precedence for further lawsuits and raise everyone's insurance rates. Company pays even more for insurance, you get paid even less. Yeah, he wins 53 million. The aviation community loses 53 million in wages. Just great

 

[h25b]

Yeah OK...great for him. Bad for everyone else. 53 million for a 63 year old pilot falls in the realm of ridiculous. It's like the fat people that tried to sue Mcdonalds. You can bet PrivatAir will never pay anything close to that amount anyway. They will tie it up appeals court for years until the guy settles for much less, then their insurance will pay the "undisclosed amount". Outrageous lawsuits like this set precedence for further lawsuits and raise everyone's insurance rates. Company pays even more for insurance, you get paid even less. Yeah, he wins 53 million. The aviation community loses 53 million in wages. Just great

I respectfully disagree.

First of all, I highly doubt that ANY insurance that PrivateAir may carry will pick up the tab for the settlement so I'm not sure what rates will be in danger of going up. I've never heard of any underwriter that will insure a company for the instances in which they decide to engage in age discrimination.

Second, the whole reason you shoot for a "ridiculous" sum in the first place is because everyone knows (the jury included) full well you will most likely never see the full amount.

Third, instead of the aviation community losing 53 million, I say we can't put a price on sending a message to these leach management operations thinking they can get away with anything. Furthermore, you can't put a price on the many years and hours of experience these "older" guys share with the rest of us...

There are many things that employers get by with when dealing with pilots just because so far they have.

Let me put this "ridiculous" settlement in perspective... I don't even think it would cover the cost of a couple G-V's...

 

[semperfido]

what goes around---you know the rest.......

 

[moving2vegas]

I'll respectfully respond.

First, you don't think employers carry insurance against employee lawsuits? They do. It's called Employment Practices Liability. It's insurance for things like age discrimination, sexual harassment and wrongful termination. Does PrivatAir have it? I have no idea. That's not the point. The lawsuit sets a monetary precedence for future lawsuits and raises insurance rates, even outside of aviation.

Second, I agree you set the bar high because in all likelihood, you'll never see anything close to that amount. However, insurance companies don't deal in "you will most likely never see the full amount". They ( the insurance provider's) only see the fact that they may actually have to pay 53 million, and they adjust their rates accordingly.

Third, a lawsuit isn't going to change management. It's only going to make management more resentful toward the reflected party. Employee wages will drop to cover any added costs associated with a lawsuit. The only practical way to change management practices is by personnel change. Furthermore, if a lawyer can put a price on a dead child, I'm sure he could come up with a price for an old, fired pilot.

Look.... I'm not trying to be an A$$. I understand where your going with your post and I sympathize with this pilot. But come on...he's 63. A high estimate would be 10 more years of flying at best. Flying a G2 in socal at maybe 125K a year. He should've gotten 1.25 M, not 53 million. But we live in this ridiculous, lawsuit filled environment. Outrageous lawsuits like this, even if a fraction of the award is paid, only benefit one person and hurt the rest of us. I'm glad this guy will get something for a wrongful termination. However, let's all join the real world and realize what effect this has to our society.

 

[h25b]

I'll respectfully respond.

First, you don't think employers carry insurance against employee lawsuits? They do. It's called Employment Practices Liability. It's insurance for things like age discrimination, sexual harassment and wrongful termination. Does PrivatAir have it? I have no idea. That's not the point. The lawsuit sets a monetary precedence for future lawsuits and raises insurance rates, even outside of aviation.

Wow, there's actually people that will insure you for being an a$$hole ??? I've got to get me some of that stuff !!!

 

[moving2vegas]

Wow, there's actually people that will insure you for being an a$$hole ??? I've got to get me some of that stuff !!!

I've got it. Very expensive....but comes in handy.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Yeah OK...great for him. Bad for everyone else. 53 million for a 63 year old pilot falls in the realm of ridiculous. It's like the fat people that tried to sue Mcdonalds. You can bet PrivatAir will never pay anything close to that amount anyway. They will tie it up appeals court for years until the guy settles for much less, then their insurance will pay the "undisclosed amount". Outrageous lawsuits like this set precedence for further lawsuits and raise everyone's insurance rates. Company pays even more for insurance, you get paid even less. Yeah, he wins 53 million. The aviation community loses 53 million in wages. Just great

WRONG.

you get paid less if you agree to work for less.

He will actually be lucky to see anything. Most 2 bit charter operators dont have $5 in the bank, and who knows what insurance is....do you really think 53 mil is going to change hands? wake up.

the point is, maybe they will think twice about canning an older experienced, expensive guy as opposed to slutting out the job to cheaper labor.

Thank this pilot, he may make your golden years a bit better.

look through the trees buddy.

 

[Spooky 1]

I'll respectfully respond.

First, you don't think employers carry insurance against employee lawsuits? They do. It's called Employment Practices Liability. It's insurance for things like age discrimination, sexual harassment and wrongful termination. Does PrivatAir have it? I have no idea. That's not the point. The lawsuit sets a monetary precedence for future lawsuits and raises insurance rates, even outside of aviation.

Second, I agree you set the bar high because in all likelihood, you'll never see anything close to that amount. However, insurance companies don't deal in "you will most likely never see the full amount". They ( the insurance provider's) only see the fact that they may actually have to pay 53 million, and they adjust their rates accordingly.

Third, a lawsuit isn't going to change management. It's only going to make management more resentful toward the reflected party. Employee wages will drop to cover any added costs associated with a lawsuit. The only practical way to change management practices is by personnel change. Furthermore, if a lawyer can put a price on a dead child, I'm sure he could come up with a price for an old, fired pilot.

Look.... I'm not trying to be an A$$. I understand where your going with your post and I sympathize with this pilot. But come on...he's 63. A high estimate would be 10 more years of flying at best. Flying a G2 in socal at maybe 125K a year. He should've gotten 1.25 M, not 53 million. But we live in this ridiculous, lawsuit filled environment. Outrageous lawsuits like this, even if a fraction of the award is paid, only benefit one person and hurt the rest of us. I'm glad this guy will get something for a wrongful termination. However, let's all join the real world and realize what effect this has to our society.

I don't have an opinion on the merits of this law suit but I do suspect that the bulk of this award is in the form of punitive damages which are NEVER covered by insurance simply because of the award one sees here. One assumes that this company will file for BK very soon if they cannot get a settlement from the guy. BTW airlines are never covered for punitive damages either for the same reason.

 

[SCT]

G200,

I don't think you can compare PrivatAir to a "2 bit charter company". They are very big in Europe.

 

[Spooky 1]

G200,

I don't think you can compare PrivatAir to a "2 bit charter company". They are very big in Europe.

You are right. This is a very large and sucessful company. At one one time the money behind them was a Greek shipping family, but they may spun that off a few years ago. At any rate I think along with TAG Avaition, Jet Aviation these are three largest ac management companies in the world today.

Once again. This money, whatever it turns out to be, will come out of the company coffers, not the insurance company. Punitive damges are never covered, period.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

G200,

I don't think you can compare PrivatAir to a "2 bit charter company". They are very big in Europe.

you are right, and I know the operation a bit. I am also willing to bet there is no/very little money in the bank.

 

[Spooky 1]

Turns out Mr. Doyle Baker is currently the Dir. Operations for The Air Group down in Van Nuys. I guess he will be buying the first round for the next couple of weeks. Is this a great world or what?

 

[~~~^~~~]

Whether or not insurance applies depends on a lot of facts we don't know.

Generally, insurance is meant to indemnify (pay back) the costs associated with accidents, not intentional acts. If there was an intent to fire this pilot because of his age, then the insurance policy would not provide coverage. However, if the Pilot was having problems passing a check ride, then there might be a bona fide reason for his dismissal.

 

[Spooky 1]

Whether or not insurance applies depends on a lot of facts we don't know.

Generally, insurance is meant to indemnify (pay back) the costs associated with accidents, not intentional acts. If there was an intent to fire this pilot because of his age, then the insurance policy would not provide coverage. However, if the Pilot was having problems passing a check ride, then there might be a bona fide reason for his dismissal.

I will say it again since must not have understood it the first time. You do not insure for punitive damages. Obviously the bulk of this award was punitive in nature since there was no way his earnings would have come remotely close to this number. The punitive nature of this awrd was meant to teach PrivatAir a lesson. I think regardless of any appeal, the message was loud and clear.

Airlines so far, have never been the recipient of punitive damages. The first time it happens, you can turn off the lights as they will never have pockets deep enough to recover. All one needs to do is look at the asbestos industry and you will see what happens when this type litigation takes over common sense.

 

[linder]

Just finished reading a report by Aero-News ( http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm ). If true (and ANN has proven to be a very accurate publication) then I hope this award is upheld and Capt. Baker takes over ownership of PrivateAir....or puts this scumbag company out of business. Check out this fact presented in court (quoted from the ANN article):


A highly decorated veteran of 242 combat missions, and a pilot with a perfect military and civilian flight record, he was terminated by PrivatAir after a flight attendant serving on the aircraft sent a letter to Willis, Moore, and PrivatAir accusing Capt. Baker of serious safety violations and portraying him as suffering from mental problems, feeble minded and too old to continue to fly.
During pretrial discovery, the flight attendant admitted that he had not written the letter, but that the other two pilots employed by PrivatAir had.
Evidence was presented at trial in support of Captain Baker's allegation of a conspiracy among the flight crew, assisted by PrivatAir, to replace Captain Baker with a younger pilot, who was a personal friend of one of the defendant pilots.

Too bad we can't all find out who the accusing flight crew. Sounds like they need a blanket party.

 

[Spooky 1]

Just finished reading a report by Aero-News ( http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm ). If true (and ANN has proven to be a very accurate publication) then I hope this award is upheld and Capt. Baker takes over ownership of PrivateAir....or puts this scumbag company out of business. Check out this fact presented in court (quoted from the ANN article):


A highly decorated veteran of 242 combat missions, and a pilot with a perfect military and civilian flight record, he was terminated by PrivatAir after a flight attendant serving on the aircraft sent a letter to Willis, Moore, and PrivatAir accusing Capt. Baker of serious safety violations and portraying him as suffering from mental problems, feeble minded and too old to continue to fly.
During pretrial discovery, the flight attendant admitted that he had not written the letter, but that the other two pilots employed by PrivatAir had.
Evidence was presented at trial in support of Captain Baker's allegation of a conspiracy among the flight crew, assisted by PrivatAir, to replace Captain Baker with a younger pilot, who was a personal friend of one of the defendant pilots.

Too bad we can't all find out who the accusing flight crew. Sounds like they need a blanket party.

I'll second that motion. These low lifes must be somewhere around SoCal. Intersting that the first 53M looks as it could be covered by insurance, while the second 10M is punitive would not be covered. Hope he gets all of it but probably not. At least the message is loud and clear.