What Has Gone Right In Iraq

[100LL... Again!]

How convenient that 350 driver forgets the large group that believe that he had weapons prior to the war.

Among those who professed that he didn't:

The French
American Liberals
The Germans

Real credible group.


He needed to be stopped before he began developing them, even if they were not there to begin with.

As far as the deaths of innecents go, don't forget that Clinton sent quite a few cruise missiles their way during his term in office.

After clinton spends 8 years pluggin up the toilet, Bush comes along with a plunger, and now you blame him because the house stinks?

A lesson in logical cause and effect is in order here.

Liberalism is a religion, I have determined, since proof is never necessary to believe what they believe. Blind faith is all that is needed. We need to separate their religion from our state...

 

[HueyPilot]

was comparing the invasion and occupation of one soverign nation by another. The principle is quite basic and has little if anything to do with one's political party affiliation.

The basic tenet of democracy is self-determination. Only the "people" of a particular nation-state have the "right" to remove its government when they do not "like" its policies. There are two methods by which this may be accomplished: 1) Through the ballot, 2) By revolution/ civil war. Both are an internal processes and do not include invasion and occupation by a foreign nation.

One cannot logically subvert democracy as a means by which to install demoracy. That's an oxymoron.

The United States is currently imposing its will upon the people of Iraq by military force and against their collective will.

I understand your logic, however you are being too philosophical and not practical.

By your logic, we had no business occupying Japan and Germany, either. And if you haven't been paying attention, the Iraqis have tried numerous times in the past 30 years to stage a revolution in Iraq, and have been mercilessly squashed each time. The previous Iraqi government was a regime that had invaded two of its neighbors, financed terrorism (not speaking of al Qaeda, but Hussein financed the Palestinian terror organization for many years), and was a general threat to everyone in the region.

There were three options to consider. We could continue the sanctions, which were obviously not working and only punishing the average Iraqi.

We could remove the sanctions and let Hussein go about his business, which anyone with a head on their shoulders would know that in 10 years we'd be right back to where we started when Hussein invaded Iran and Kuwait.

Or, we could finish the original Gulf War, considering that it never really ended. USAF and USN aircraft were constantly engaging in combat operations over Iraq on a daily basis. And Hussein had not lived up to the terms of the cease-fire. Gulf War I was never really over.

The first option isn't sustainable in the long run, and we'd eventually be forced to consider options 2 and 3.

Option 2 wasn't a smart idea, which leaves us with Option 3. Clinton probably wanted to exercise Option 3, but didn't because it would quite likely mean dealing with the very same political firestorm we have today with the current Administration.

Some folks indicate that we should have helped the Shi'ites fight the revolution that budded shortly after the Gulf War fighting ended. But to do so would require involving at least some military units, and no bare-bones resistance could stand to crush the heavily armored Republican Guard divisions. So, at some point, had we pursued this option we would likely have been drawn into combat.

There have been plenty of situations where a "sovereign" nation was invaded for the good of the world. Germany is one. Had we gone by your logic, we would have been required to stop the invasion at the Rhine. Japan is the same story. After kicking Japan out of the Pacific Islands and Eastern Asia, going by your logic we had no right to invade Okinawa, nor did we have any right to invade the mainland. Mission accomplished, we had rolled back the Japanese Empire to its own borders, so therefore we had no right to pursue farther.

In Bosnia and Kosovo, the US and NATO had no right to occupy what was once part of the Yugoslav nation. Australia had no right to enter and occupy East Timor. And the list goes on.

 

[TonyC]

Re: Tony Rumsfeld is that you?

Tony, Tony, Tony...

...

YOU'RE BUSTED!!

WOO HOO!!!

<Dances a sarcastic little jig while taunting Tony the whole time>

HAH!

I caught you in a spelling error! Am I the first *ever* to correct Tony? Am I? Is there a prize?

LOL

As a matter of fact, that irate ACA MX fella caught me in a typo earlier today. I make plenty of mistakes, believe me....

Ask my kids -- they know more!


BUT.... ask A Squared about the "prize" he got from me this evening. I'd be happy to treat you to the same if you were in ANC. A small token of congratulations on the Type Ride and upgrade was consumed at "F" Street Station, and my Captain and I enjoyed tales of the DC-6 from a consummate gentleman, namely A Squared, over dinner at Humpy's. Wish you'd been here!

 

[mar]

Drats! Foiled again!

Ah, bummer man.

I'm really beginning to despise FAI. I feel like I'm on detention or something.

Everyone else is out having fun and I'm just sitting in the corner.

Sucks to be me.

 

[TonyC]

Re: Drats! Foiled again!

Ah, bummer man.

I'm really beginning to despise FAI. I feel like I'm on detention or something.

Everyone else is out having fun and I'm just sitting in the corner.

Sucks to be me.

Aww, hush your whinin' and fix your profile! We'll make it another day.

 

[mar]

Guilty pleasures

I feel so *dirty* but hijacking this thread is giving me such pleasure.

Tony, it's a deal. No more belly aching but my profile is essentially correct.

I'm *still* just an FO.

Asquared got the full-time Capt gig. I got a reserve Capt spot.

I suppose I could add the type--and a few hundred hours to my total time...

...man, I'm so bloody bored. Consider it done.

 

[Tim47SIP]

Typhoon

My question is this: there is a dictator out there who is torturing his own people in horrible ways and has real nuclear technology and offensive weapons. If it is now our goal to spread Democracy throughout the world, why aren't we working to put Kim Chong-il in the same cage Saddam's in? Saddam may have been a bastard, but at least he was relatively rational. Kim's crazy! Is George waiting for the N.K.'s to kick us in the nuts before he does something?

1. The answer to the first and partial second question is very simple. It comes from military schools and the War College. It was not something that Fox news dreamed up. It is extremely simple and to the point. He has NOT attacked two countries, gassed hundreds of thousands of people (let alone his own), violated years of UN mandates, nor has he had a UN resolution allowing the use of force against him. Is he a bad man, Yes! Has he threatened and vowed to take back South Korea, Yes! Has he done it yet, No!. Does he have the capability to do what he says he can do? Maybe! Is there another country that might be a greater problem if the US intervened? You bet! China. The current and past administration has taken the usual PC protocol approach to dealing with China and N Korea. This has been going on for years. Nothing new here.

2. The rest of the answer to the second question is that our goal is NOT to administer Democracy to the rest of the world. Iraq, Afghanistan, Bosnia and Haiti are but a mere by product due to their own political problems.

3. The NK's aren’t going to kick anyone’s but. Although your are correct that Kim is a nutcase, China will intervene if NK does something ridiculous. They can not afford to let NK screw up their whole economy by attacking Japan, Australia, or any other part of the world. China is NK's only friend a present.



350 wrote: 100LL and those alike, you truly continue to crack me up so keep those posts coming. It must really make you bitter that there is so much outspoken anti-bush people that continue to speak up. You have bought into this "flawed" administration's hogwash and propaganda but fortunately the International community and world leaders will continue to be outspoken and continue the attacks on this flawed and "joke" of an administration. Bush has made more mistakes than anyone could have thought possible and ultimately these screw-ups will allow him to follow in his father's footsteps this november. Sad sad that you buy into this joke. What is even more sad is the new administration is going to have years of work to correct all these fuc$ ups that bush has been capable of doing.





Lowlead, Tony, Dubya, Huey Dood, et al

I wouldn’t waste my time on the likes of 350 and the 4-5 other liberals that agree with him. I am not really sure where the “so much outspoken anti-bush people” are, but I guess 350 feel’s that they exist. He sounds like a little kid that screams “la,la,la,la” when he does not want to hear what is going on around him. The deals with guys like him are that they are not concerned for the well being of the U.S., but more the political game. They could care less who was in the White House, just as long as it was the party that they belonged to. In other words, it is a big football game, and understandably they want their side to win. Al Sharpton could be the nominee and they would be happy, just as long as a Dem was in office. They make up things to justify their mantra “Bush lied about WMD”. But when confronted with information that Clinton stated the same things, no reply. Bush went off of the same info that every other Foreign Nation and the previous administration went off of. It was flawed, it was wrong, but Bush had to act on the info he had. Anything else would have been a disservice to the American People. They also state that Bush only went in to Iraq to finish what his Dad failed to do. The Dem’s have a very short and convenient memory. Go back to the Gulf War and re-read history. You will find that Bush I did try to get SH, but the Democratic majority REFUSED to let him go into Baghdad (you know, the same ones that would not let the Bush administration hire the TSA agents as civilians instead of GS workers. Now those same individuals are complaining that Bush created the biggest Government in history). I remember the wait as we were only a few miles from Baghdad and were told that Congress denied the request. They are also more concerned what the UN thinks than what is best for the U.S. Appeasement is the norm, rather than the rule. Look where that got us, 911. Oh ya, that was the Bush administrations fault for hiding and ignoring warnings so we could focus on Iraq. After all, Bush was in office 8 months and knew EXACTLY what was going to happen. Surely if a Dem was in power, 911 would not have happened!

 

[JonJohn82]

The saddest thing is that Bush is making a joke about his inability to find any WMDs in Iraq while four American contractors are being burned alive and hung in Fallujah, other American and "coalition" soldiers are dying on a daily basis, and an untold number of our soldiers are losing arms, legs, you name it. Bush's joking around like that is sickening. He might as well have been spitting on our dead and injured countrymen.

 

[Tim47SIP]

Are you for real?

The saddest thing is that Bush is making a joke about his inability to find any WMDs in Iraq while four American contractors are being burned alive and hung in Fallujah, other American and "coalition" soldiers are dying on a daily basis, and an untold number of our soldiers are losing arms, legs, you name it. Bush's joking around like that is sickening. He might as well have been spitting on our dead and injured countrymen.

The joke came well (weeks) before the Fallujah incident. What is your point. Some of those soldiers you talk about are freinds of mine, and they unequovocally do NOT share your twisted view. Fortunately, the major majority of servicemen or sevicewoman family members do not share your views. Those proud soldiers serve our great country for the very reasons that you hate. They also would give their eye teeth to meet President Bush.

 

[HueyPilot]

Bush joke

I do not share your view that Bush was "spitting" on servicemen and women. I am one of those people. I was in Iraq this past summer, and will likely be going back within the year. And I am not offended by Bush's joking.

I almost choked on my drink when I saw some lady on a news talk show say "I think I speak for all veterans of the Iraqi conflict that Bush's joke is an insult". Hey, nice to know I have people to "speak for me"...when is it cool to hijack someone's opinion?

 

[Typhoon1244]

Now, just how did you twist that to "anyone who disagrees with the President is a moron and a coward?"

Okay, let's see. 100LL wrote: "Therefore Bush was justified. Besides, it needed doing anyway. Final score, Bush did the right thing, and you only hate him because in your cowardice you fear that angering these arab nutcases further will disturb your pleasant little life. Cowards. I bet there is nothing you would be willing to die for."

In other words, if you disagree with Bush's decision to go into Iraq, you're a coward. (The 'moron' thing just came from 100's overall tone. )

Feeling a little paranoid, are we?

No, just frustrated. You're an intelligent guy--and an airline pilot, no less--who likes George Bush. That's like a fitness buff that only eats at McDonalds.

I don't get it.

 

[Snoopy58]

As for Bush's jokes on WMD:

The Wall Street Journal asked for reader reactions on the WMD jokes -- specifically, readers with military connections. They received 101 replies. Three of the replies were negative, although none of the 3 were active military (former, parent, and ROTC iirc). The remaining 98 responses, including LOTS of active military folks, including some in Iraq & Afghanistan, were all favorable. Many VERY favorable about Bush's use of humor concerning WMD.

It's convenient for the "we know best" liberals to claim that Bush dishonors our servicemen with his jokes, but they sure don't see it that way!

 

[A Squared]

Thanks, Tony,

Was a great evening. Loved the stories about the Paris air show. Folks, if I ever go to Paris for the air show, I'm going with TonyC. THIS man really knows how to work the perks. I'm talking about front row seats on the flightline, unlimited free booze. Musta kissed the Blarney stone somewhere along the way!

 

[sqwkvfr]

Good God, ya need a pair of earplugs to read this thread!

 

[Typhoon1244]

Good God, ya need a pair of earplugs to read this thread!

You're telling me!