What happens to the Compass flowthrough, if NWA Merges?

[kman]

Have some friends over at compass, whats going to happen if NWA merges? Does the contract address this?

 

[SpauldingSmails]

It would depend on what NWALPA MEC negotiates with merged carrier. No one really knows for certain. Even if a merger were to be announced it would be a long time before the two one legged men are sewn together so to speak. Look at US West/East.

 

[browneye]

compass is going to be sold to republic anyway.

 

[SpauldingSmails]

compass is going to be sold to republic anyway.

You've been waiting since May '06 to make this your first post?

 

[Occam's Razor]

The language says "successors or assigns".

It survives. Like all contract provisions, it can be modified or removed by the MEC.

 

[N2264J]

Re: What happens to the Compass flowthrough if NWA Merges?

It survives.

How can you be sure? The new airline will have to negotiate a new agreement, right?

 

[JoeMerchant]

.....like everything..... it is negotiatable...... I wouldn't want to be in a Compass seat when this defication hits the 6 speed rotary occilator.........

..... it will be yet another lawsuit against ALPA......

 

[koepp]

compass is going to be sold to republic anyway.

Compass Can't be sold for a long time unless the language in the NWA contract changes. Obviously, anything is possible in a merger senario.

 

[Hovernut]

All your flowthrough are belong to us!

 

[DrewBlows]

How can you be sure? The new airline will have to negotiate a new agreement, right?

It's in the contract. An acquiring company has to abide by the existing contract. If you had to negotiate a new contract every time an airline changed hands, management would simply sell the company every time it wanted concessions. If two (or more) pilot groups have to be merged, that would have to be negotiated.

 

[lookin4better]

compass is going to be sold to republic anyway.

I hate to say it but I think history might back up this one......ala Mid Atlantic

one of the reasons I did not go to the interview this spring

of course I fully admit I could be wrong...just a guess, good luck to all who went there! We are all just trying to get to that final job

 

[Airline Driver]

With in the next 5 years of our every changing industry, there will most likely be 1 or 2 less legacy carriers and a few less Regionals as well. All because of mergers and or acquisitions or perhaps even a couple of bankruptcy's. Not something we all want to hear but I think it is a pretty reasonable assumption.

"AS THE PROP TURNS" Not a bad name for a reality series huh!! All we need now is a producer and a contract and we could all supplement our incomes pimping ourselves out to NBC on a new hit reality series. imp: $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

 

[N2264J]

Re: What happens to the Comapss flowthrough, if NWA Merges?

It's in the contract.

When I said "agreement" I meant contract.

A merger will trigger the renegotiation of the new contract for the new emerging airline giving management yet another chance to hack away at labor.

If I'm not mistaken, the Northwest MEC will be negotiating on behalf of the Compass pilots.

 

[Occam's Razor]

How can you be sure?

Because it's a law thingy.

The contract(s), both NWA and CPZ, can't be changed unilaterally. They can only be changed with concurrence of both parties. (Aside: That's the ugly truth in the former-TWA pilots gripe with "ALPA")

Speaking only in the purest legal sense, the RLA prevents the new combined carrier from abrogating any contracts unless the contract permits it (section-by-section). For example: Contracts can contain triggers that require new pay rates, or a release from Probation for members, if a merger takes place.

In the case of NWA and DAL, Section 1 contains "successorship" language that keeps all sections intact unless modfied by BOTH parties. The CPZ contract goes further, and defines who the "parties" are.

The new airline will have to negotiate a new agreement, right?

At some point, of course.

I think your question is: Would the current agreement be modified as a pre-condition to consummating the merger?

My guess: Probably.

As a Scope-hating lawsuit-lover, you probably see any such pre-nup as another chance for "ALPA" to stick it to you.

As a pragmatist, I see it as an opportunity to recover some of things we lost in Chapter 11, that would protect and enhance this career. Investors and the new Board will pay to achieve Labor peace.

 

[N2264J]

At some point, of course.

Yes, and sooner rather than later. Otherwise, in the Delta-NWA example, whose work rules would be used when the deal is consumated? Whose pay rates? Whose benefit package? How about conflicting scope clauses?

A new consolidated contract will have to be negotiated. So how can you be sure about anything currently in the NWA agreement?

 

[DrewBlows]

Yes, and sooner rather than later. Otherwise, in the Delta-NWA example, whose work rules would be used when the deal is consumated? Whose pay rates? Whose benefit package? How about conflicting scope clauses?

A new consolidated contract will have to be negotiated. So how can you be sure about anything currently in the NWA agreement?

Compass is not the same as NWA. I don't think it is likely Compass is merged with anyone in a sale, though I could be wrong. Some possibilities (not probabilities in my opinion): Compass is merged with Comair, Compass is merged with Delta and NWA, Compass, Comair, NWA, and Delta are merged, Compass is sold to Republic (I'm not sure if this is even possible at the present due to NWA contract language).

 

[Occam's Razor]

...in the Delta-NWA example, whose work rules would be used when the deal is consumated? Whose pay rates? Whose benefit package? How about conflicting scope clauses?

Both, until operations are integrated.

Both, until a new deal is negotiated.

Both, until a new deal is negotiated.

There are none.

So how can you be sure about anything currently in the NWA agreement?

Because I deal in what is...and not what might be.

The NWA agreement (we call it a "contract") can't be changed without our consent. I'm SURE of that because the Railway Labor Act makes it a statutory certainty. If we were in Chapter 11, I'd tell you a judge could change it. Since we're not...I'm telling you only WE can change it.

There's a good chance it will be changed. But since we're not in extremis, any changes will have to be to our benefit...or we will simply sit on our hands and watch the circus....and no changes will occur.

We kept our Successor and Fragmentation language largely intact, so our vulnerability to "do it, or else!" is low.

 

[Dirty Sanchez]

Compass flowthrough?

It is as much a fantasy as the Easter Bunny...

 

[DashTrash400]

Compass flowthrough?

It is as much a fantasy as the Easter Bunny...

I suspect we're about to find out just how real the flowback is.

 

[~~~^~~~]

I'm not so sure about that. NWA is unique in that they still have a defined benefit pension plan. THis retirement was bought with very concessionary rates.

Delta and United lost their retirement plans. In Delta's case the pay is better than NWA and no one really wants to go back to the Company retirement because no one trusts a defined benefit plan to be sustained until they retire.

It is my guess that if a merger should occurr the managing carrier would try to cash out the NWA pilots' retirement, in a manner similar to the early out packages Delta pilots were offered before bankruptcy.

This is a win/win, since the senior gentlemen have a voluntary option to enter a funded retirement and the airline manages costs by decreasing longevity, as well as avoiding displacements and furloughs.

The question is, how well is NWA's retirement plan funded? Can they do a targeted early retirement option?

 

[FDJ2]

It is my guess that if a merger should occurr the managing carrier would try to cash out the NWA pilots' retirement, in a manner similar to the early out packages Delta pilots were offered before bankruptcy.

What early out packages were offered to Delta pilots before the bankruptcy?

I can't recall anything being offered. I do recall that we had a contractual right to a lump sum payout that was already a part of our negotiated DB plan, but nothing was offered.

 

[N2264J]

Re: What happens to the Compass flowthough, if NWA Merges?

Both, until operations are integrated.
Both, until a new deal is negotiated.
Both, until a new deal is negotiated.

Thank you for making my point for me.

Per the contract, a merger would have no effect, assuming the language wasn't modified as part of the integration agreement.

So just to be clear, you're not sure what contractual provisions will survive in a merger. Isn't that right?

 

[michael707767]

What early out packages were offered to Delta pilots before the bankruptcy?

FDJ2 is right. There were no early out packages offered. Many pilots opted to take advantage of our existing contractual language and retire early, but there were no packages offered.

Having said that, I also agree with Fins. I could see a situation in a Delta/NW merger where there were early out packages offered to the top NW pilots to help prevent furloughs off the bottom, and thus get the support of both MECs.

 

[Occam's Razor]

So just to be clear, you're not sure what contractual provisions will survive in a merger. Isn't that right?

Holy Bagpipes! Are you serious?

You need to call your pharmacist and get your money back.

Quit being a dork. EVERYTHING survives. All of it. Every bit.

Now...tell me the terms of the merger proposed by management(s), and I'll tell you what improvements we'll demand for any contractual modifications they request.

Since you can't, go hump someone else's leg for a while, huh?

 

[~~~^~~~]

Mea Culpa... 737Pylt and Michael are correct. When I heard pilots "accepted" and "took" the early out, I thought it was an "offer." But they are correct, it was a contractual provision.

If DAL & NWA merge, it is my hope they will negotiate a similar provision for those who would want to accept that as an option. It seems of done right, it could be a win/win.

 

[kman]

Any news on when and if the merger will happen?

 

[Rook]

All your flowthrough are belong to us!

HA! That never gets old.

"Somebody set us up the flowback!!"

 

[N2264J]

There's a good chance it will be changed. But since we're not in extremis, any changes will have to be to our benefit...or we will simply sit on our hands and watch the circus....and no changes will occur.

Really?

OK, then the new management decides to keep the airlines separate with their separate contracts with the different work rules, different pay rates, and different benefit packages.

How long do you think it will take management to figure out which pilot group has the cheapest compensation package? Maybe it's the Delta pilots because they don't have a defined benefit plan. Oops - looks like your expectation of retiring as a 747 Captain has been derailed!

And while Razor is sitting on his hands, ladies and gentlemen, I submit that this kind of thinking is why ALPA is such an abject failure:

And thank you for reminding me of your culpability in the effort to erode the mainline franchise through your willingness to fly those 76-seaters for crap rates.

The mainliners have always had the power to fix the whipsaw but haven't even when they recognize the erosion to the profession. They settle for higher payrates and work rule enhancements and blame the victims instead.

The longer the mainliners let the problem fester, the more it's going to cost us all to fix it.

 

[Explosive]

Really?

OK, then the new management decides to keep the airlines separate with their separate contracts with the different work rules, different pay rates, and different benefit packages.

They can't do that. It has to be a "single carrier". One contract, One list.

Based on your previous posts in this thread, you don't really understand haw these things work. Managment cannot pick and chose which contract provisions stay.

When two UNION airlines merge, or are operated by the same holding company, they have to be operated by one pilot group with one contract in accordance with the most important part of any labor contract: recognition and job security.

Maybe you are working at a non-union airline where non of these protections exist. In that case, you better believe that managment will keep the airlines seperate so they can use one against the other. There are also regionals that have minimal protections as well (was never a problem until recent years).

 

[N2264J]

When two UNION airlines merge, or are operated by the same holding company, they have to be operated by one pilot group with one contract in accordance with the most important part of any labor contract: recognition and job security.

Of course, and that contract will have to be negotiated so when Occum's Razor claims that every contract provision will survive intact, he's either being disingenuous or naive. Isn't that right?

Maybe you are working at a non-union airline where non of these protections exist.

I'm in ALPA and that protection should exist as a mandate within the union - no? Isn't that what merger and alter ego policy is there to address?

If flow throughs are such a good deal for the profession, why aren't Delta, Northwest, Continental and United Airline pilots exploring mutual flow throughs with each other in the coming merger instead of one list? Answer: It doesn't stop the whipsaw.