What does your 1.95% do for you?

Splinter

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 1, 2005
Posts
78
Total Time
5000+
Not for sensitive eyes...

Delta, Northwest, United, USAirways...what happened? Let's compare these legacy carriers with another one...American.

The airline industry is in a paradigm shift. RJ's growing, LCCs dominating domestic growth, 9-11, and skyrocketing fuel costs. Feeble management at these airlines clearly inept and impotent. Of all the airlines, most would consider the labor/management relationship at American to be hands down the worst. Funny how it is American that worked with its unions to coordinate furloughs, fleet retirements, displacements, and significant compensation reductions...WITHOUT strike or bankruptcy. Why? Because American pilots could give a rip at what happens to United or Delta.

Carriers need in-house unions that care only for its own survival which is directly linked to their airline. Delta pilots should NEVER care about pilots at Northwest. Lack of ALPA handcuffs at SWA and American allows them to focus on ONLY their careers, families, etc. If you fly for Delta and you are staring down the barrel of Bush blocking a strike and a court re-writing your contract, how would you feel? How do United pilots feel? USAirways HAD a retirement. Why SHOULD any of these pilots give a hoot about the plight of pilots at other carriers? Competition baby! Don't you think Southwest pilots want to bury jetBlue, AirTran, and Frontier? You bet...and the feeling is shared. They die, we grow, they lose, we win. No alliances.

So what of alliances? Allegiance? What has ALPA done for legacy carriers lately? And why is Woerthless still in office? He is the Frank Lorenzo of airline labor. It will be his picture on CEO's offices for his efforts in reducing ALPA to a toothless tiger. The man is a clown. Local unions can accrue war chests, fight grievances, and collectively bargain effectively WITHOUT the self-serving interests of ALPA. Delta, Northwest, United, and others need union representation that cares only for its fellow employees, not toeing the line on behalf of another carrier's pilots who open negotiations the following year.

If all unions were in house, we would all be better off as pilots. ALPA cannot protect your career by representing the competition too. How many major carriers NOT represented by ALPA have filed for Chapter 11? I trust my local reps with my job but I wish we would vote ALPA off the island and go at it on our own. ALPA only cares about ALPA...it forgets that its members are employees first, and union members second. ALPA doesn't send you a check to pay your mortage, your company does. Let's hope that ALPA goes away soon. Someone can start a new PAC to lobby for airline pilot issues...it wasn't funded with union dues to begin with.

The only management more incompetent than that of USAirways, Delta, and the other legacy carriers that filed Chapter 11 is that of ALPA. Unions are essential for pilots IMHO, but Woerthless has mutated ALPA into a cancer that management always wanted to remove, and now its members are dying from.
 

Huck

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 6, 2001
Posts
1,076
Total Time
11,000
Sad thing is, from his aircraft he looks like ASA guy....

Need to look up "whipsaw." Then ask a trucker or a miner why they don't use in-house unions. Better yet, ask a TWA guy about the benefits of a common union between two pilot groups. And what happens when there ain't one.

Blame the player (including the fun you obviously have wih his name) if you must, but don't blame the game.

And if you are ASA- national has spent enough there in accident investigation support alone to justify paying dues. Not to mention two $1,000,000 checks in the late nineties for contract talks and a strike fund.
 

MajorAv8r

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 19, 2005
Posts
49
Total Time
Fair
Interesting points. Couple of thoughts.

Regionals would have a tough time going on strike, like Comair. Without the assesments from the the ALPA majors, strike pay and the fund would have been non-existent. They would have to contribute more than 1.95%.

Woerthless needs to go. I don't see anyway to argue otherwise.

American has done OK lately, I guess they have cleaned up their act after the sick out fiasco. But their management has been reasonable also. Apples oranges with DAL USAir etc...

You say that we shouldn't care about what other carriers are doing, but in good times this was a solid source for contract improvements. The nature of being competitive is looking at the other guy. Seems that your statements want it both ways. Besides if we don't look at the other guy mismanagement is. Hence the industry race to the bottom for benefits.

Is the system working right now. Its ok. Would 30+ fractional associations fix it, no.
 

The Prussian

Stecknadelkopf
Joined
Oct 24, 2005
Posts
671
Total Time
25K+
Quote from Splinter:
"Competition baby! Don't you think Southwest pilots want to bury jetBlue, AirTran, and Frontier? You bet...and the feeling is shared. They die, we grow, they lose, we win. No alliances."

Sadly, your thoughts misrepresent a lot of our views...
 
Last edited:

SWA/FO

5 Star Senior Member
Joined
Nov 26, 2001
Posts
3,520
Total Time
>12000
:beer: I agree..... The FedEx dude doesn't because they kicked their "in house" union to the curb and brought in ALPA.

FedEx has got to be ALPA's only remaining shinning star.
 

crashpad

"Why do you come to me?"
Joined
Jun 11, 2003
Posts
1,354
Total Time
+13000
Splinter said:
Carriers need in-house unions that care only for its own survival which is directly linked to their airline.
While I don't agree with everything he says here, Howard Johnson is right! Yawl need an in-house.

Consider this: at our airline we pay 1.8% dues and are currently weighing a permanent reduction to 1.65%.
 

DIAMONDDD

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 28, 2001
Posts
463
Total Time
some
crashpadWhile I don't agree with everything he says here said:
I laughed out loud when I read this. Good one. "He said the sheriff is near!"
 

GogglesPisano

Pawn, in game of life
Joined
Oct 20, 2003
Posts
3,939
Total Time
enough
If anything, we need a single, strong, national union. Not a loose affiliation of locals (ALPA) and certainly not a bunch of independent unions.
 

Splinter

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 1, 2005
Posts
78
Total Time
5000+
Change the Guard!

ALPO uses pattern bargaining, a practice in which collective bargaining at one union is predicated on the outcome of another closely related in time. In other words, ALPO staggers negotiations for its locals so to build on each other. United, Northwest, Delta, etc. all have staggered agreement dates so to allow contract cycles to not overlap; therefore allowing ALPO to base arguments on provisions at other carriers. If United gets a particular trip rig, it's a given that Northwest can afford it also, but let's tweak it a little...and so on. The UAW perfected it and after the UAW just took a $3 billion annual concessions hit at GM, the honeymoon is over.

There is NO WAY on this green earth that ALPA would have allowed ANY of its locals to volunteer a paycut to prevent future losses. Imagine if Delta had accepted concessions the first time they were approached. The annual cost savings could have been built up, retained more cash, and Delta could lean on its creditors saying "even our pilots are doing their part." ALPO wouldn't allow it because it would start a domino effect at other ALPA carriers. There was also INCREDIBLE mistrust of management and for very good reason (golden parachutes). Nevertheless, this is the undoing of ALPA.

Bottom line is this, when you have a positive working relationship between management and a union, there is trust. If SWA or JB management ever needed a rollback in rates, it wouldn't take for hell to freeze over. American proved that even the largest carrier in the world can make it happen, and that is because they did not have a big brother trying to protect its interests at airlines with different seniority lists.

However, ALPA does have the opportunity to reinvent itself and decentralize its focus on ALPA National and concentrate on local efforts. ALPA needs leadership, and it will NEVER come from Woerth's office. How ironic that Woerthless always chastized LCC pilots for downgrading industry wages, and now he would kill to get SWA payrates. Someone called JB a cult? Since when does being happy at work make you a member of a cult?
 

Splinter

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 1, 2005
Posts
78
Total Time
5000+
The Prussian said:
Quote from Splinter:
"Competition baby! Don't you think Southwest pilots want to bury jetBlue, AirTran, and Frontier? You bet...and the feeling is shared. They die, we grow, they lose, we win. No alliances."

Sadly, your thoughts misrepresent a lot of our views...
Seriously? Herb put on war paint and dressed in fatigues when he "went to war" against Texas Int., Continental, Braniff, etc. Don't tell me SWA wants to share the market with anyone..."us against the world" is what Herb used to make SWA the inimitable juggernaut it is today. Your whole workforce shows up everyday trying to figure out new ways to kick everyone else's tail. Kudos.
 

pylut

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 26, 2002
Posts
177
Total Time
7000hr
Better yet, ask a TWA guy about the benefits of a common union between two pilot groups. And what happens when there ain't one.
Word of advice Huck. When trying to shine a good light on alpo don't look for any positive words from TWA pilots. i would rather see alpo wither die and go away and make way for a union with some power and effectiveness. Maybe even an outfit that actually looks out for it's members rather than the self serving beauracracy that alpo has become.
 

Huck

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 6, 2001
Posts
1,076
Total Time
11,000
Read my quote you pasted. It ain't about ALPA - it is about a common union during an acquisition.

Do you think you would have done worse had AA been in the same union?

You guys are bucking hundreds of years of labor history. The world has changed but not that much. And the UAW concessions show that a national union does react to the market.
 

Rez O. Lewshun

Save the Profession
Joined
Jan 19, 2004
Posts
13,422
Total Time
X>X
Looks like the Anti ALPA thread of the week.

Translation: I don't understand how the system works, I have to blame someone.. who will listen?

Get informed..it is trhe only way to fix the problem...
 
N

needapayraise

SWA/FO said:
:beer: I agree..... The FedEx dude doesn't because they kicked their "in house" union to the curb and brought in ALPA.

FedEx has got to be ALPA's only remaining shinning star.


Yeah, and just look how much money they are leaving on the table. Typical ALPA pu$$ies.
 

FedEx1

Professional Plumber
Joined
Dec 4, 2004
Posts
271
Total Time
Plenty
Huck

My understanding is that even of both TWA and AA were ALPA, ALPA wouldn't have done anything at all. They always "wash their hands" when 2 ALPA carriers are talking about merging- telling them they aren't able to get involved at all. Conflict of interest? I don't know.

What DID seem to happen is that the APA (AA) was courted by ALPA. ALPA was so hoping to get the APA to come on over to ALPA that ALPA rolled over and died for the TWA guys. Then lo and behold! The APA didn't join ALPA.

And I am not sure if "worse" was possible.....

ALPA is only as good as your MEC.
 

El-Rushbo

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 31, 2005
Posts
178
Total Time
2500
Rez O. Lewshun said:
Looks like the Anti ALPA thread of the week.

Translation: I don't understand how the system works, I have to blame someone.. who will listen?

Get informed..it is trhe only way to fix the problem...
In my short few weeks here I have come across a few of your posts with the same pattern......an elitist, arrogant attitude that also has no answers but delights in shooting down the thoughts of others. So enlighten us, oh wonder of the aviation community, as to the intricate workings of ALPA and airline labor relations. Please provide references and cite all sources. A brief explanation is preferred, but a more lengthy analysis will also be considered.

Oh, BTW, Woerth is worthless, as are your condescending posts. JMHO.
 

Splinter

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 1, 2005
Posts
78
Total Time
5000+
pylut said:
Word of advice Huck. When trying to shine a good light on alpo don't look for any positive words from TWA pilots. i would rather see alpo wither die and go away and make way for a union with some power and effectiveness. Maybe even an outfit that actually looks out for it's members rather than the self serving beauracracy that alpo has become.
AMEN! Preach on!
 

320AV8R

DUMP ALPA
Joined
Oct 15, 2003
Posts
505
Total Time
2 much
FedEx1 said:
Huck
What DID seem to happen is that the APA (AA) was courted by ALPA. ALPA was so hoping to get the APA to come on over to ALPA that ALPA rolled over and died for the TWA guys. Then lo and behold! The APA didn't join ALPA.
Exactly.

320AV8R
 
Top