What Do You Want The ASA CNC To Do

[buscap]

Why is that the only thing we can do? Because the union says so? Unions don't have a great track record right now. I have a good friend who was at Alleghany and he said he heard the same thing from ALPA. He saw the same thing there that he sees here. I also have a neighbor who is a Northwest mechanic. He went on strike like his union told him to. He ended up having to sell his house and his airplane. He said going on strike was the biggest mistake he ever made.

Asa Driver,

Nobody has ever gone on strike because the union has told them to do so. ALPA National literally works for us in this instance. WE vote wether or not to go on strike.

If you think about it, a strike on our part is not in ALPA National's best interest. A strike would most likely cause great harm to ALPA National, by puting DELTA and ASA out of business. That is a huge chunk of lost revenue for ALPA National.

WE vote on wether or not to strike. And please feel free to talk with other pilots about how you feel. Tell them how you think it is just fine that they take a paycut while working for a profitable company. You are entitled to that opinion, feel free to express it.

 

[ASADriver]

Asa Driver,

If you think about it, a strike on our part is not in ALPA National's best interest. A strike would most likely cause great harm to ALPA National, by puting DELTA and ASA out of business. That is a huge chunk of lost revenue for ALPA National.

WE vote on wether or not to strike. And please feel free to talk with other pilots about how you feel. Tell them how you think it is just fine that they take a paycut while working for a profitable company. You are entitled to that opinion, feel free to express it.

You say it would cause great harm to ALPA by putting ASA and DAL out of business. That would cause great harm to me and to many other pilots. I have spoken to other pilots about this. Some agree with me, and some like you don't. However there are more that think like me than it seems. We generally don't like to vocalize these thoughts in front of the hard core union guys because of the verbal abuse we get from them. Most of us wouldn't take a paycut, but unfortunately I'm afraid the 70 rates will have to come down some. We are only profitable if we are competitive on winning bids. Once we lose the bids, we don't become profitable anymore. Look at CMR and ACA. Do you want to become another CMR or ACA?

 

[John Pennekamp]

To say that this forum is any more Fair and Balanced than the ALPA board is laughable. I would say that it just as biased toward management as the ALPA one is toward the union. On ALPA all the ALPA kool aid drinkers post while the silent minority reads. Here the management shrills sound off while the majority read. This is not an indicator of anything!

That said, I'm ready to flush 15+ years down the toilet if this company won't recognize the value I give to it's bottom line. I'd be happy to spend every day fishing.

Yes strike... no concessions.

 

[buscap]

You say it would cause great harm to ALPA by putting ASA and DAL out of business. That would cause great harm to me and to many other pilots. I have spoken to other pilots about this. Some agree with me, and some like you don't. However there are more that think like me than it seems. We generally don't like to vocalize these thoughts in front of the hard core union guys because of the verbal abuse we get from them. Most of us wouldn't take a paycut, but unfortunately I'm afraid the 70 rates will have to come down some. We are only profitable if we are competitive on winning bids. Once we lose the bids, we don't become profitable anymore. Look at CMR and ACA. Do you want to become another CMR or ACA?

I do appreciate your position, but I believe you are mistaken about our profit situation. We are not a strictly growth model company. How much new flying have we bid on and won lately? None, but we're still profitable. That has never been ASAs forte. And further, I believe we can continue to be profitable and even grow without taking paycuts.

Let's be clear here...the company is asking for paycuts while we are profitable. And to be even clearer, they are asking for these paycuts without any tradeoff.

The whipsaw is an entirely different matter. If we do not stand strong, we will all, Skywest guys included, find ourselves constantly played against one another in a race to the bottom. While that may be the ultimate expresion of our quasi-free-market economy, the result will be jobs not worth having for anyone who plans on working here more than three years.

While I realize my self imposed final career destination may be someone else's stepping stone, I will do what I can to make ASA the best airline in the industry, period. And that may include going on strike, rather than allow wages, quality of life, and working conditions to deteriorate further.

And please know this, without my, and those who came before me, desire to make better wages, quality of life, and working conditions better here at ASA, this place would not be tolerable as even a mere career stepping stone.

For example, without the union imposed seniority sytem, how much smoozing would it take for you to get in the left seat to get those hours you need. And late for work too many times?....Without the union, you'd be gone. Days off? Pay? Safety? All definitely gone without airline unions. And all possibly gone as the result of well played whipsaw.

What we do have is the result of past hard work and resolve. And whatever lot in life at work we have tomorrow, will be the result of our hard work and resolve, or lack of, today.

The best companies are not defined merely by profits, just as the best jobs are not defined merely by wages.

 

["GO AROUND"]

You say it would cause great harm to ALPA by putting ASA and DAL out of business. That would cause great harm to me and to many other pilots. I have spoken to other pilots about this. Some agree with me, and some like you don't. However there are more that think like me than it seems. We generally don't like to vocalize these thoughts in front of the hard core union guys because of the verbal abuse we get from them. Most of us wouldn't take a paycut, but unfortunately I'm afraid the 70 rates will have to come down some. We are only profitable if we are competitive on winning bids. Once we lose the bids, we don't become profitable anymore. Look at CMR and ACA. Do you want to become another CMR or ACA?

How do you figure you and many others will not take a paycut with the companies last proposal?!?

I am not on the 70 and I would take a big paycut with the companies last proposal. Loss of underblock pay is big by itself and it affects every pilot at ASA. Even you, not just nap pilots, it takes money from all pilots. About a 4-5% cut for me.

Last I heard the company took the longevity bumps each year out of their last proposal. So there is another cut. Deadhead pay at 50% is another cut. Cancellation pay on a leg by leg basis. You adding all these cuts up? No commitment to our pilots on merger, fragmentation, or even that SKW Inc will even be bound to our contract.

You obviously need to do more research on what exactly the company is proposing. Cause you obviously don't have any idea.

 

[atrdriver]

Either you like it or you don't - which is it? You will like it a lot more being paid as a captain, and that won't happen if we shrink. I'm not "willing to work for less". You aren't making any sense, why would I give up what I have to go start over at the bottom again. That just doesn't make any sense. The current offer on the table gives me a raise, plus I am still getting a longevity bump every year. Things just aren't as bad here as some of guys are trying to make it. If we start shrinking then things will get bad fast.

No, you won't. With managements current proposal you will be at the same payrate for the life of the contract, plus however long it takes to negotiate a new one. Why can't you see that simple fact?

 

[atrdriver]

You say it would cause great harm to ALPA by putting ASA and DAL out of business. That would cause great harm to me and to many other pilots. I have spoken to other pilots about this. Some agree with me, and some like you don't. However there are more that think like me than it seems. We generally don't like to vocalize these thoughts in front of the hard core union guys because of the verbal abuse we get from them.

The polling by the Wilson center doesn't bear that out. The polls being taken show an overwhelming majority of pilots here support a strike if needed. And do you really think that being on the same payrate for 6-9 years is acceptable? What did things cost 6 or 7 years ago? The price of EVERYTHING goes up in this world, your pay should too.

 

[atlcrjdriver]

ATR, again you spread untruths, the companies proposal does want cuts on the CR7 however longevity increase do apply. No company will leave you at one rate for the life of the contract that would be called a pay freeze. It appears that many of you are voting yes on this strike vote for one of two reasons: mad at the company for past indiscretions or because ASA ALPA tells you to. I was not here during the last contract negation and have heard all the stories of how bad it was. Its time to get over it and move on. The times have changed, we are no longer wholly owned by DL and the look of management has changed. If the company’s proposal was for pay cuts all around with no chance of trip rigs nor scope, I would be right there with you for the strike vote. The truth they are not, the cuts or only for the CR7 which WILL make us a bigger competitor in that market. They have agreed to talk with us on duty rigs and we can work on scope.

Think for yourself and not blindly follow anyone or any group..

 

[ASADriver]

That said, I'm ready to flush 15+ years down the toilet if this company won't recognize the value I give to it's bottom line. I'd be happy to spend every day fishing.

Some of us can't afford to spend everyday fishing, although I'd like to. I guess you don't care about those of us who can't afford to go fishing instead of to work. I know I won't change your mind, but if you don't care about me, then I don't care about you. If you can afford to quit and go fishing, maybe that is what you should do - that would make us both happy.

 

[ASADriver]

I do appreciate your position, but I believe you are mistaken about our profit situation. We are not a strictly growth model company. How much new flying have we bid on and won lately? None, but we're still profitable. That has never been ASAs forte. And further, I believe we can continue to be profitable and even grow without taking paycuts.

Let's be clear here...the company is asking for paycuts while we are profitable. And to be even clearer, they are asking for these paycuts without any tradeoff.

The whipsaw is an entirely different matter. If we do not stand strong, we will all, Skywest guys included, find ourselves constantly played against one another in a race to the bottom. While that may be the ultimate expresion of our quasi-free-market economy, the result will be jobs not worth having for anyone who plans on working here more than three years.

For example, without the union imposed seniority sytem, how much smoozing would it take for you to get in the left seat to get those hours you need. And late for work too many times?....Without the union, you'd be gone. Days off? Pay? Safety? All definitely gone without airline unions. And all possibly gone as the result of well played whipsaw.

Buscap, we aren't taking a paycut, unless you are on the 70. Even then, the profit sharing will make up for it. The 70 seat rate on the table is higher than the SKYW 70 seat rate. As far as "whipsaw" and "standing strong", that all sounds great, but the fact is someone will come in and do our job while we "stand strong". As far as the seniority system, that is part of our problem. If we didn't have it, we could leave and start somewhere else without starting all over. That is what other professionals do isn't it? Why don't we do that? Sorry Buscap, I'm not participating in your suicide mission.

 

[ASADriver]

How do you figure you and many others will not take a paycut with the companies last proposal?!?

I am not on the 70 and I would take a big paycut with the companies last proposal. Loss of underblock pay is big by itself and it affects every pilot at ASA. Even you, not just nap pilots, it takes money from all pilots. About a 4-5% cut for me.

Last I heard the company took the longevity bumps each year out of their last proposal. So there is another cut. Deadhead pay at 50% is another cut. Cancellation pay on a leg by leg basis. You adding all these cuts up? No commitment to our pilots on merger, fragmentation, or even that SKW Inc will even be bound to our contract.

You obviously need to do more research on what exactly the company is proposing. Cause you obviously don't have any idea.

I think you need to do more research. The update on open items I got from the union says nothing about not getting longevity bumps. Where are you getting that from? You heard? Not good enough. Maybe the union should start communicating better with the members. I also didn't see anything about giving up cancellation and underblock. The union update didn't say anything about that either. I also thought that the company agreed to 100% DH. Sounds like we are getting some bad information. Can the union put out the current offer for us to make a decision on? What is wrong with putting out the current offer?

 

[ASADriver]

atrdriver, where are you getting no longevity bumps from? I don't see that anywhere, even from the union update on open items. Sounds like bad information. Why aren't we getting more information on where we are on all the issues? Sounds like some hardcore types are trying to drum up support by lieing about what is on the table. Put out the proposal, then let us decide. Quit lying to us.

 

[atrdriver]

I think you need to do more research. The update on open items I got from the union says nothing about not getting longevity bumps. Where are you getting that from? You heard? Not good enough.

How about directly from the chairman of the CNC. Is THAT good enough for you? The current proposal does not provide for longevity bumps. If you think I'm lying to you then you need to go talk to someone on the CNC. I did. Obviously you HAVEN'T. If you are dumb enough not to do your research I can't help you. If you are further dumb enough to vote in a contract that would leave you at the same payrate for 7-9 years I hope all your captains double check your manifests.

 

[buscap]

Buscap, we aren't taking a paycut, unless you are on the 70. Even then, the profit sharing will make up for it. The 70 seat rate on the table is higher than the SKYW 70 seat rate. As far as "whipsaw" and "standing strong", that all sounds great, but the fact is someone will come in and do our job while we "stand strong". As far as the seniority system, that is part of our problem. If we didn't have it, we could leave and start somewhere else without starting all over. That is what other professionals do isn't it? Why don't we do that? Sorry Buscap, I'm not participating in your suicide mission.

ASA Driver,

Fistr off, thanks to you and ASACRJDRIVER for keeping this relatively high-brow. With that said, I would like to point out that the company's most recent proposal is a paycut for me, now on the 50 seater and in the future on the 70, when the combined total of the cuts are added up. We're talking about Deadhead pay, underblock, etc. And further, the company has NOT proposed letting us in on the incentive program or proposed profit sharing. AT least I haven't seen it in writing.

I will not accept a paycut while working for a profitable company.

And I do not believe I am living in the past. The contract transgessions are a fact of life today. The contract we are working under right now is in many ways substandard to the one we actually ratified last time, due to the company's success in a few key arbitrations and reinterpretations of schedueling sections.

The whipsaw recently implemented makes standing strong even more important. We are actually lucky the whipsaw is being utilized while we are so close to a contract endgame. At least we will soon have the option of conducting self help.

If we do not get a tighter contract with real scope and without paycuts, this job will not be worth having. And I for one want this job. I love this job. Flying blue-hairs all over the southeast tickles me to death...really...it does. I want this job so much, I am willing to cause great financial harm to the company to keep this job. I will hopefully go on strike in such a manner and time, which does not allow the company to recover from the financial strain.

If they are able to replace my services and stay in business, then so be it. Apparently this profitable company wants a paycut and quality of life decrease from me so much, they are willing to take the exact same company-destroying gamble as I.

Maybe I'll see you on the picket line and unemployment office. But I would rather fly with you, as part of a successful, profitable airline which treats employees and customers with respect.

 

[atlcrashpad]

Don't believe the profit sharing scam. I want QOL from scheduling and Rigs to keep the compny from abusing me. I want a nice working environment that I look forward to everyday. That is NOT what we have now.

 

[atlcrjdriver]

ATR, again do your own homework. Directly from the CNC, well in that case boys lets close up shop and go home because the CNC Chairman said so. It is as if they have you so brainwashed that you have lost the ability to FORM YOUR OWN OPINION. With that said, the union update you and I got simply breaks things down into percentages. They didn’t take the time to show the entire compensation chart like on ascontract.com.

Buscap, how long do think we will stay profitable if we are not competitive in the CR7/9 market? These a/c are the future of the regional business, not the CR2.

Don’t take my word for it, do your own homework research the facts and vote what YOU think needs to jappen.

 

["GO AROUND"]

I think you need to do more research. The update on open items I got from the union says nothing about not getting longevity bumps. Where are you getting that from? You heard? Not good enough. Maybe the union should start communicating better with the members. I also didn't see anything about giving up cancellation and underblock. The union update didn't say anything about that either. I also thought that the company agreed to 100% DH. Sounds like we are getting some bad information. Can the union put out the current offer for us to make a decision on? What is wrong with putting out the current offer?

I tell as many people as I can as a P2P rep. Guess you are not talking to the right people.

Underblock pay has not been in the companies proposal and they want nothing to do with min day or rigs to help replace it.

I will pass that question on to the MEC and CNC for you.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

atrdriver, where are you getting no longevity bumps from? I don't see that anywhere, even from the union update on open items. Sounds like bad information. Why aren't we getting more information on where we are on all the issues? Sounds like some hardcore types are trying to drum up support by lieing about what is on the table. Put out the proposal, then let us decide. Quit lying to us.

I think you are a troll that is bored at the GO. If you are not I challenge you to do the following:

1. Call your Reps
2. Call a P2P

It is that simple. Pick up your phone and dial the number. The are all listed on the ALPA website. Do it right now and ask your questions in person.

This is a waste of our time though because you won't do it.

If you are not a mgt troll (and I beleive you are) then you are probably too stupid to find the number and make a simple call and get your question answered.

Apparently you think flightinfo is the place to get your questions answered. As such, you are destined to remain with your head buried deeply in your rectum.

Believe what you like but base it on facts.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

ATR, again do your own homework. Directly from the CNC, well in that case boys lets close up shop and go home because the CNC Chairman said so. It is as if they have you so brainwashed that you have lost the ability to FORM YOUR OWN OPINION. With that said, the union update you and I got simply breaks things down into percentages. They didn’t take the time to show the entire compensation chart like on ascontract.com.

Buscap, how long do think we will stay profitable if we are not competitive in the CR7/9 market? These a/c are the future of the regional business, not the CR2.

Don’t take my word for it, do your own homework research the facts and vote what YOU think needs to jappen.

Do you honestly believe that the CNC would deliberately lie to the membership Is that what you really, truely think?

 

[atrdriver]

ATR, again do your own homework. Directly from the CNC, well in that case boys lets close up shop and go home because the CNC Chairman said so. It is as if they have you so brainwashed that you have lost the ability to FORM YOUR OWN OPINION.

Jesus you are DENSE. The chair of the CNC sits across the table from management in negotiations. I think HE KNOWS what the company is offering us. You want to take a paycut, fine. I don't, and the majority of pilots here don't either. Like buscap said, I love this job. I actually love this company. I don't love the management team that we work for. I am sick of them treating us like uninformed 6 year olds. I am sick of the beatings. As much as I love flying, there is a certain point where the responsibility isn't worth what they are offering to pay.

And it's not me that needs to do my homework. I have talked face to face with the negotiating comm members. I know what is on the table, by both ALPA and the company. Maybe you need to do some.

 

[Tomct]

ATR, don't waste anymore of your breathe on these IDIOTS, they are obviously mgmnt lackies!! They will be out there with us walking the line when we shut this joint down!

Time for respect or shut it down. This job is not worth the headache's without the right compensation. If they don't want to play ball at the negotiating table, then so be it!

Nuf Said!:uzi:

 

[atlcrjdriver]

No, I don’t believe that he would lie to the rank and file. I do believe that he would spin any information he thought necessary to convince us to swing the union’s way. I was not there during your conference with the chair, but I don’t believe he told you that the compensation chart from the 12/05 proposal is gone and that you will be on the same pay scale at the same rate for the life of this contract w/o longevity or COLA. No carrier is business today has ever proposed a deal like that.

Tomct, I am neither a mgmt lackey nor am I a union “Yes” man.

 

[Tomct]

atlcrj....RIIIIIIIGHT!!!!!! If you want to keep your head in the sand and THINK that mgmnt is doing what's best for us....think again. Your Choice! I, on the other hand, along with everyone else, have had ENOUGH!!!!!

 

[atrdriver]

No, I don’t believe that he would lie to the rank and file. I do believe that he would spin any information he thought necessary to convince us to swing the union’s way. I was not there during your conference with the chair, but I don’t believe he told you that the compensation chart from the 12/05 proposal is gone and that you will be on the same pay scale at the same rate for the life of this contract w/o longevity or COLA. No carrier is business today has ever proposed a deal like that.

Tomct, I am neither a mgmt lackey nor am I a union “Yes” man.

No, you weren't there, and you don't know what you are talking about. You go right ahead and think whatever you want. Those of us that want the information will seek it out, and not depend on "no carrier in business today has ever proposed a deal like that". Well, YOUR carrier has junior. But you just believe what you want, and when you get what you are wishing for there won't be anyone to blame but yourself.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I was not there during your conference with the chair, but I don’t believe he told you that the compensation chart from the 12/05 proposal is gone and that you will be on the same pay scale at the same rate for the life of this contract w/o longevity or COLA. No carrier is business today has ever proposed a deal like that.

ASA management has.

If you are that convinced that the evil empire of your own association is out to screw you, why don't you pick up the phone and call Scott Hall tomorrow and ask him to read it to you.

Apparently you believe everything out of that clowns mouth. Ya' know, cause he's so honest and all.

You really are pathetic by the way. A really sad case.

 

[buscap]

ATR, again do your own homework. Directly from the CNC, well in that case boys lets close up shop and go home because the CNC Chairman said so. It is as if they have you so brainwashed that you have lost the ability to FORM YOUR OWN OPINION. With that said, the union update you and I got simply breaks things down into percentages. They didn’t take the time to show the entire compensation chart like on ascontract.com.

Buscap, how long do think we will stay profitable if we are not competitive in the CR7/9 market? These a/c are the future of the regional business, not the CR2.

Don’t take my word for it, do your own homework research the facts and vote what YOU think needs to jappen.

ATLCRJDRIVER,

Unfortunately this thread has once again gone to name calling. Not your fault, but sorry about it. Let's blame it Springer and move on.

Obviously we would like to see a fully assembled contract proposal before a strike vote, but the whipsaw has started already. That whipsaw by itself, was enough to convince me, send me over the edge, you might say. We are sitting at the table bargaining in good faith and the company is shrinking us or at least threatening to do so.

That is an unacceptable situation. We have got to get ourselves into a position where self help can be exercised, or watch our assets transfer to skywest in a long slow bleed.

We must not allow that to happen. And if asset transfer truly is the plan, no amount of paycuts or capitulation will stop it. Our only recourse is to cause harm to the company via a strike. If the bean-counters determine they will lose more in a strike than can be gained by asset transfer, perhaps the negotiations will continue in good faith.

Hopefully Delta will step in and stop the madness. A strike at ASA would likely put them out of business. I don't want that. This is not only my passion, it is how I pay my bills. And I would like to keep paying those bills, but I will not take a paycut from a profitable company, nor will I allow my quality of life to be eroded, in order to simply pay those bills.

The matched sections I have seen are an overall paycut, decrease in quality of life, and leave the door open to future whipsaw. It's that simple.

 

[atlcrjdriver]

Those of us that want the information will seek it out

ATR, that is all that I want, for the line guy/gals to make an informed decision. As I have have said on another post, I know the vote will pass the only question is by what percentage. There are too many pilots voting yes just because the union said they should w/o getting any of the facts. Allot of guys haven't even seen the 5/24 proposal the ALPA sent out. Its not that hard to get the die hard ALPA folks fired up and spilling your guts. Tomct probably got writers cramp and ATR, I owe you an advil and a shot of vodka. Will I vote yes for the strike, probably but the final decision will be made when I have the ballot in my hand and any new developments assest.

The whole point of my posts are to raise awarenes so people can make an informed decision.

 

[AVoiceOfReason]

I haven't seen anything that keeps everyone at the same longevity - I call BS on that one.

 

[Tomct]

No writer's cramp here ATL, but like I said....Enough is ENOUGH!!! We have been watching how "Our" so called company has managed this circus! They could not even fight their way out of a paper bag. Just waiting for the Strike Ballot!

 

[atrdriver]

I haven't seen anything that keeps everyone at the same longevity - I call BS on that one.

You can call it what you want. That is what is in the companies current proposal, and that is from the CNC. As well as loss of premium pay, 50% DH, no rigs, no min day, and of course a tremendous cut for 70 FO's, and a small cut for 70 Capts. Just cause you haven't seen it doesn't mean it isn't there, does it? I'll bet you have never seen the #2 outflow valve on a CRJ. Does that mean it doesn't exist?