What Are Industry Average Wages?

[KingAirer]

Whats Industry Avg?
50seaters
FO PAY

Skywest CHQ MESA COex ASA Eagle Comair AVG
1. 19.02 21.00 20.47 19.56 19.02 20.60 22.50 20.31
2. 34.54 28.25 27.42 27.74 33.65 29.21 35.75 30.93
3. 35.61 32.50 30.59 30.11 34.67 31.72 36.86 33.15
4. 36.71 33.50 31.90 31.61 35.70 33.29 37.99 34.38

Capt.
Skywest CHQ MESA COEX ASA Eagle(92%)Comair AVG
1. 56.03 51.00 51.17 51.60 54.46 50.07 57.99 53.18
2. 57.77 54.00 52.76 53.14 56.08 51.57 59.79 55.01
3. 59.54 57.67 54.35 54.75 57.78 53.12 61.62 56.97
4. 61.40 59.74 55.99 56.38 59.50 54.70 63.55 58.75
5. 63.29 61.29 57.64 58.08 61.29 56.35 65.51 60.49
6. 65.25 63.19 59.32 59.82 63.13 58.04 67.53 62.32
7. 67.27 65.14 60.94 61.02 64.39 59.20 69.62 63.94


* ASA numbers were from 2001, so they should be slightly higher, if someone has the new ones, please post. Also the eagle 93% wasnt figured in to the avg, so capt avg as shown are slightly higher.

Also, this doesnt even account for QOL issues such as Jr. man, commuterclauses, 401k, bennies, etc..

 

[Patriot328]

edited because format isn't right.. will post later

 

[PilotMonkey]

Shouldnt you take into account the minimum pay guarantees?

 

[KingAirer]

Go for it, Id like to see the comaparison with that included.

 

[George Jetson]

Those aren't "true" industry averages. Why not add in the rest of the 50 seat operators? ACA, ARW, TSA, etc. Furthermore, I'd stop hanging your hat on this "commuter clause." It costs the company nothing and my guess is that your management at CHQ isn't firing people left and right because they aren't getting to work today. It isn't a problem today...and is simply "feel good" language in the future. Nice to have.....but not something that boosts QOL. Things that boost QOL are things like lineholders don't ever sit reserve, a REAL trip trading system (automated and real time over the 'net), and a quality vacation system that allows a pilot to turn a week of vacation into 24 days off for the month, while retaining 75 hours of MPG.

GJ

 

[Patriot328]

Those aren't "true" industry averages. Why not add in the rest of the 50 seat operators? ACA, ARW, TSA, etc. Furthermore, I'd stop hanging your hat on this "commuter clause." It costs the company nothing and my guess is that your management at CHQ isn't firing people left and right because they aren't getting to work today. It isn't a problem today...and is simply "feel good" language in the future. Nice to have.....but not something that boosts QOL. Things that boost QOL are things like lineholders don't ever sit reserve, a REAL trip trading system (automated and real time over the 'net), and a quality vacation system that allows a pilot to turn a week of vacation into 24 days off for the month, while retaining 75 hours of MPG.

GJ

ACA has all those QOL items you mentioned, except for the trip trading system is still done by a human, in the end. It is on the net, however.

As for commuting clause not being a good or QOL feature, you must not commute.....

 

[George Jetson]

Feel free to add them. Im sure everyone would like to see it.

I don't need to add them. I already know the answer. If you added them in, you'd find that your "industry average" would increase, thus further showing the difference between CHQ's new rates and the "industry average." Frankly, the "big boost" was to 2nd year FO rates for you guys and in my opinion, it wasn't much of a big boost at all. Your 5th year Captains received a few bucks more an hour. Your 3rd year FO's got squat. Read some of the other posts...at some point, the growth stops and you will have 5th year FO's - but lo and behold, there is no 5th year pay rate? Hmm.....sounds fishy to me.

Some of you guys will get on here bashing me personally but in fact, I am commenting on a TA that in my opinion (and others), DOES affect the rest of OUR 50 seat industry. You've just made it ok for management to pay $21/hr to someone with a 4 year degree, thousands of hours, and tons of money invested in an aviation education. Yes, others before you approved it as well...but with each new TA we should strive to get away from the "I'll work for pennies because I get to fly cool new jets" attitude.

As I've said time and time before, I am not bashing CHQ or the hard work that your EC/NC performed. They had Republic held over their heads and that was certainly a huge win for you guys. But there is still more work to be done...lots more. And you guys are taking it hook, line, and sinker.

GJ

 

[George Jetson]

ACA has all those QOL items you mentioned, except for the trip trading system is still done by a human, in the end. It is on the net, however.

As for commuting clause not being a good or QOL feature, you must not commute.....

I mentioned trip trading and a lineholder not sitting reserve. A little research does indeed show that ACA pilots who are lineholders can sit reserve. I reference your scheduling section:

4. Regular lines of flying may only include scheduled reserve days if such lines of flying are built in accordance with the provisions set forth below:

a. Regular lines of flying that are scheduled for less than seventy-five hours (75:00) of credited flight time (exclusive of reserve day credit) and that have more than eleven (11) days off per bid period.

b. The pilot will be credited with three hours forty-five minutes (3:45), of credited flight time for the reserve day or the scheduled credited flight time of the pairing assigned and flown by such pilot, whichever is greater.

c. Such lines of flying may be scheduled for a maximum of four (4) reserve days.

d. The addition of reserve day(s) cannot result in total credited flight time in excess of seventy-eight hours and forty-four minutes (78:44) for the bid period and such lines of flying must be scheduled for at least eleven (11) days off.

Furthermore....on the subject of a Commuter Policy:

Yes, it is a nice thing to have and eases the blood pressure a bit, however it isn't worth "dollars" and my guess is that Tom Moore hasn't been firing pilots due to pilots not being able to get to work. No Commuter Policy is a "free ticket" to work. You still have to be a responsible commuter. Nonetheless, my whole point all along was that CHQ pilots shouldn't go waving their "Commuter Policy" around showing how great their TA is. There are far more important areas to be looking at....

Pay Rates
Work Rules
Retirement & Benefits
Scope

Frankly, the CHQ TA is woefully lacking (with respect to Comair and even ARW's concessionary TA) in all of those areas EXCEPT for Scope.

GJ

 

[46Driver]

I have to disagree (you must not be a commuter.) I have a 2 leg commute and the flights have been so full lately that I have to start my commute not from my hometown airport but to drive from to another 2 hours away. To be at work at 8:00 am on Saturday, I am having to leave my home at 4:00 am Friday. The commuter clause is VERY important.

 

[Patriot328]

I mentioned trip trading and a lineholder not sitting reserve. A little research does indeed show that ACA pilots who are lineholders can sit reserve. I reference your scheduling section:

4. Regular lines of flying may only include scheduled reserve days if such lines of flying are built in accordance with the provisions set forth below:

a. Regular lines of flying that are scheduled for less than seventy-five hours (75:00) of credited flight time (exclusive of reserve day credit) and that have more than eleven (11) days off per bid period.

b. The pilot will be credited with three hours forty-five minutes (3:45), of credited flight time for the reserve day or the scheduled credited flight time of the pairing assigned and flown by such pilot, whichever is greater.

c. Such lines of flying may be scheduled for a maximum of four (4) reserve days.

d. The addition of reserve day(s) cannot result in total credited flight time in excess of seventy-eight hours and forty-four minutes (78:44) for the bid period and such lines of flying must be scheduled for at least eleven (11) days off.

Furthermore....on the subject of a Commuter Policy:

Yes, it is a nice thing to have and eases the blood pressure a bit, however it isn't worth "dollars" and my guess is that Tom Moore hasn't been firing pilots due to pilots not being able to get to work. No Commuter Policy is a "free ticket" to work. You still have to be a responsible commuter. Nonetheless, my whole point all along was that CHQ pilots shouldn't go waving their "Commuter Policy" around showing how great their TA is. There are far more important areas to be looking at....

Pay Rates
Work Rules
Retirement & Benefits
Scope

Frankly, the CHQ TA is woefully lacking (with respect to Comair and even ARW's concessionary TA) in all of those areas EXCEPT for Scope.

GJ

I guess regular lines of flying can have reserve days in it. I haven't seen it in the 5 years I've been here, but I guess it can be done. It doesn't look like it would be an everyday situation, however.

As far as Tom not firing people because they can't get to work, there's a reason he hasn't been... it's called the COMMUTER POLICY. It's save my butt more than once and has helped out many, many pilots when trying to get to work. It's about as free of a ticket to work as you can possibly get. Considering well over half our pilot force commutes (last I heard), it's a nice feature to have. I agree that it costs the company almost nothing.


Other than bickering over this commuter policy thing, I have to agree with you that the new CHQ pay rates suck and the QOL leave a lot to be desired. I make $57.13/hr to fly the 32 seat dojet around, CHQ will be flying a 50 seat CRJ for $61 and change.... pathetic... MESA's even worse, though! If you include the "soft pay" items such as Deadhead pay, block or better, and proper cancelation pay, I make more flying what is essentially a 32seat turboprop than these guys do flying the E/CRJs.

Makes it much more difficult to negotiate... nevermind the FO rates. I thought they couldn't get worse than our Dojet FO pay rates, but they are......

 

[waterski]

Trans States Airlines
50 seat jet as of 8-01-03

capt.......... fo
0-1 52.40 . 21.22
1-2 54.08 . 24.24
2-3 55.75 . 30.78
3-4 57.42 . 31.84
4-5 59.06
5-6 60.76

4 year old payscales with 2.5%increase for the next 2 years

 

[I.P. Freley]

This endless complaining about CHQ's TA does remind me of the similar complaining about Mesa's deal of some months ago.

Again I will wonder aloud why it is that noone accepts the gravity of the situations both companies were in when it came to trying to keep their flying out of the hands of startups by their OWNERS.

Mesa did well to kill Freedom and bring back the CCAir people, and now CHQ does well to keep all future Republic flying on their seniority list. Don't these major victories make up for the perceived shortfalls in the specifics of the contract(s)?

I think they do. Why does anyone else think differently??

 

[stillaboo]

Don't these major victories make up for the perceived shortfalls in the specifics of the contract(s)?

I think they do. Why does anyone else think differently??

Many who have not faced the threat of a start-up from within don't understand the gravity of the situation (from the outside looking in, it doesn't look so bad). Many who have never had great pay rates don't understand how each new contract is slowly setting a precedent of poorer pay relative to Commair (despite the reasons for the poorer pay, most of which are legitimate). It's all a matter of opinion.

Keep the large jets at mainline guys, and raise the average by enhacing your own contract.

 

[I.P. Freley]

Am I the only one who thinks it's naiive to expect a Comair-level contract from a company that isn't owned by a major, to say nothing of the fact that it's post-9/11, not pre-9/11?

In any case, I'm actually surprised that CHQ pulled off the "keep Republic flying on our seniority list" clause. I think they done did good.

I also think it's suicidal for a pilot group to say "keep the big planes at the majors". If CHQ (or any regional) doesn't take them, another one will. Besides... It's already done! There are already 70-seaters out there, and to try to limit that growth now is like closing the barn door after all the horses have trotted off.

Just my $0.02. Well, minus 10%, I guess it's $0.018.

 

[skootertrash]

Don't worry I.P. After those pricks shut you down they are going to take the SA certificate and run 70 jets with it. CHQ might have stopped Rebublic but read the wording. WEX can do what ever the hell it wants.

 

[Doberman]

KingAirer'

Thanks for the info. My illusions are subsiding.

 

[stillaboo]

Am I the only one who thinks it's naiive to expect a Comair-level contract from a company that isn't owned by a major, to say nothing of the fact that it's post-9/11, not pre-9/11?

Nope.

I also think it's suicidal for a pilot group to say "keep the big planes at the majors". If CHQ (or any regional) doesn't take them, another one will

I want mainline to agree to fly them as the bottom of their payscale rather than a 'regional' fly them as the top of theirs. Better to have job creation at the bottom of a career job than at the top of a 'stepping stone'.

Kingairer, good info. Thanks for posting it.

 

[lazy8s]

...my guess is that Tom Moore hasn't been firing pilots due to pilots not being able to get to work. No Commuter Policy is a "free ticket" to work. You still have to be a responsible commuter....

Nobody has been fired because we end up calling in sick if we get stuck. I know a few that have been suspended for missing a commute though.

A commuter clause may not equate to $$$ in your eyes but if you have to call in, you run the risk of getting caught and end up on suspension, that is $$$ no matter how you shake it.

For the record, I have not had a direct need for a commuter clause yet, but I have come VERY VERY close and that would have been a nice safety net.