West pilots appeal to the Supreme Court

[Ty Webb]

What do you mean we "lost"? Everyone else on this board says it was a fair arbitration so if it is fair than no one "lost" right?

You lost your naked and shameless grab for what wasn't rightfully yours, that's what you lost.

Look at what you wrote- it is very apparent how wrong it is to every airline pilot but yourselves. You guys have destroyed what could have been a good airline.

 

[241BlujucCktl]

From the ALPA manual:

B. PURPOSE AND SCOPE OF MERGER POLICY
REAFFIRMED - Executive Board May 1996
1. The fundamental purpose of this policy is to provide protection for the employment rights and interests of ALPA flight deck crew members in an orderly, expeditious, and equitable manner.

and further down:

In joint session, the merger representatives should attempt to match equities to various methods of integration until a fair and equitable agreement is reached, keeping in mind the following goals, in no
particular order:
a. Preserve jobs.
b. Avoid windfalls to either group at the expense of the other.
c. Maintain or improve pre-merger pay and standard of living.
d. Maintain or improve pre-merger pilot status.
e. Minimize detrimental changes to career expectations.

So I did take a certain liberty in interpretation since it would be superfluous for the Policy to mention avoidance of any "tyranny of the majority".
non sequiturTrying to justify the East's nefarious actions since the Nicolau list came out is beyond weird.Not so. You care very much since you're trying so hard to justify the East's actions.

"A certain liberty in interpretation", a creative liberty would be putting it mildly. Thanks for posting that part of the ALPO merger policy. It demonstrates the complete failure of ALPO. "Preserve jobs," ALPO failed right off the bat on that one. The money from the sale of the EMB-170's to consecrate this abomination of a merger cost 300+ pilot jobs. "Avoid windfalls to either group at the expense of the other," a 16 year pilot placed below a new hire on the new proposed seniority list a windfall, more like an never ending microburst with wind speeds at f5. Improve pre-merger pay, standard of living and pilot status, no improvement just furloughs. "Minimize detrimental changes to career expectation," with the massive amount of retirements from the East side the lowest seniority east pilot pre-merger would have been a captain in 2009 (delayed of course by the age 65). I sincerely doubt E.V. will be a captain in 2014. Other monumental failures by ALPO include summarily terminating the east pilot pension without a pilot vote and not investigating if the pension was underfunded or by how much it was underfunded. The result, a 30 year career gets about $30k per year from the pbgc. I know this means nothing to you TWA Dude because you probably too self absorbed to realize that if those guys could afford to retire it would benefit both sides.

 

[TWA Dude]

I know this means nothing to you TWA Dude because you probably too self absorbed to realize that if those guys could afford to retire it would benefit both sides.

Lemme see if I can shorten your illegibly-long paragraph: blah blah it's ALPA's fault blah blah I disagree with Nicolau so you suck blah blah. Tell it to the judge.

 

[241BlujucCktl]

Thanks for condensing. Do you have any response as to the content? I appreciate your patience with my illegibly-long typing, between flights and using the phone's keyboard. Here is 1 4 u. 4,777,666,9 88,7 9,33,33 555,444,8,8,555,33 6,2,66.

 

[TWA Dude]

Do you have any response as to the content?

If you insist.
Nicolau followed ALPA's merger policy. Your disagreement is irrelevant because he's the one tasked with interpreting it.

You blame ALPA for your pension loss yet it wasn't Woerth or any other monolithic ALPA National people who made that decision. It was your local elected reps. Take some responsibility. And in any case, no pilot pensions can survive one bankruptcy let alone two. It was gone and no union could've done a darned thing about it.

 

[charlie2]

You lost your naked and shameless grab for what wasn't rightfully yours, that's what you lost.

Heh heh he said naked. The above statement is the almost word for word what eastinfections say about westicles!!!! We have so much in common!

Look at what you wrote- it is very apparent how wrong it is to every airline pilot but yourselves. You guys have destroyed what could have been a good airline.

Never was or will be a good airline but out of idle curiousity why did you think it could have been?

 

[Metrojet]

Thanks for condensing. Do you have any response as to the content? I appreciate your patience with my illegibly-long typing, between flights and using the phone's keyboard. Here is 1 4 u. 4,777,666,9 88,7 9,33,33 555,444,8,8,555,33 6,2,66.

That was funny!

Metrojet

P.S.- now matter what language or code you write in - TWA Dude is only thinkig about himself anyway

 

[michael707767]

If this takes much longer the West will have wasted all this time and money as a large percentage of East pilots will have retired anyway. Put up a fence, watch them grow old and you'll be in the same spot you would have with the nic anyway. (and not have spent all that money)

Though I support the west pilots and think that ultimately they will win all lawsuits, from a practical standpoint I tend to agree with you. On the other hand, I admire the west pilots for fighting this. Otherwise any merger in the future will basically come down to which group has more pilots and what do you have to do to appease them.

 

[TWA Dude]

P.S.- now matter what language or code you write in - TWA Dude is only thinkig about himself anyway

I'm glad you wrote this in the morning because if I'd read it last night your stinging verbal barb would've left me crying myself to sleep.

But since you've seen fit to lob an accusation of selfishness I'll go ahead and challenge it. From the first announcement of the AWA/AAA merger I declined to post any opinion of what constituted a fair integration and instead stated my confidence in the fair process of negotiation--> mediation--> arbitration, something denied my TWA brethren by the "protecting their own" APA. So then after arbitrator Nicolau ruled I accepted it.

If my acceptance of binding arbitration elicits an accusation of selfishness from the likes of you then so be it. But it begs a discussion of what integration method YOU support: using your tyranny of the majority to impose a list the East wants. So, Mr. Tough Internet Message Board Man-Of-Genius, how are your words and actions not INFINITELY more selfish than mine?

(prediction of Metrojet's response if he's man enough to even try:
blah blah ALPA sucks blah blah Nicolau is senile blah blah I'm entitled to whatever I want blah blah)

 

[Metrojet]

I'm glad you wrote this in the morning because if I'd read it last night your stinging verbal barb would've left me crying myself to sleep.

But since you've seen fit to lob an accusation of selfishness I'll go ahead and challenge it. From the first announcement of the AWA/AAA merger I declined to post any opinion of what constituted a fair integration and instead stated my confidence in the fair process of negotiation--> mediation--> arbitration, something denied my TWA brethren by the "protecting their own" APA. So then after arbitrator Nicolau ruled I accepted it.

If my acceptance of binding arbitration elicits an accusation of selfishness from the likes of you then so be it. But it begs a discussion of what integration method YOU support: using your tyranny of the majority to impose a list the East wants. So, Mr. Tough Internet Message Board Man-Of-Genius, how are your words and actions not INFINITELY more selfish than mine?

(prediction of Metrojet's response if he's man enough to even try:
blah blah ALPA sucks blah blah Nicolau is senile blah blah I'm entitled to whatever I want blah blah)

Good Morning TWA DUDE -

I am glad you had a good nights sleep! As to my barb at you - I was just stating that you (don't take this personally) or any AOL member have not even attempted to compromise on "our SLI". It is either Nic or sue. If it was really a fair methodology - then 10% of all pilots would have been happy and 90% would be unhappy - thats not what actually happened - 100% of the West felt they won the lottery while 90% of the East lost - the only pilot group who felt somewhat fairly integrated were the East "517".

We (West and East) have to meet in the middle of the street. Nic is not even close to the white line.

I was on the USAPA web site reviewing the hundreds of documents and legal briefs that have been filed from both sides - it is amazing (and costing us both lots and lots of dollars!). Believe me when I throw this out - there aren't as many East pilots that want to bid PHX as there are senior West FO's who would bid Captain out East in a heartbeat, or West Captains that want to bid wide-body in PHL. Thats the truth - whether you want to admit it or not. So until the "AOL" group accepts that - we stay separate and the East pilots get some major attrition in 2 years and 2 months - and you get to keep your position in PHX.

As I said in another post - I'll retire in CLT if you promise to retire in PHX.

Metrojet

 

[abefly]

you cant fix stupid

 

[xrated]

So until the "AOL" group accepts that - we stay separate and the East pilots get some major attrition in 2 years and 2 months - and you get to keep your position in PHX.

Humor me this Metro. According to your numbers, how many East pilots qualify to retire (age 65) for the 1st 2 years after Jan 1, 2013? Look into it, because I'm guessing its not nearly as many as most think. My point being, there isn't going to be the "major attrition" at UsAirways in 2 & 2 like you think. Pehaps in 5-6 years from now, but not 2-3 years. Keep in mind that when retirements do hit, many of those will be F/O's. I do give you that, the East has a very senior F/O staff. Hardly the attrition I'd be excited about!

Until the East pilot group accepts that, we stay separate ops, and the East continues to live under LOA 93......as F/O's!

 

[Guppiedriver]

They have been billed $1,800,000 in attorney fees. Not sure what they still owe, but I believe it is still over 7 figures.

Metrojet

Right and wrong.

If this takes much longer the West will have wasted all this time and money as a large percentage of East pilots will have retired anyway. Put up a fence, watch them grow old and you'll be in the same spot you would have with the nic anyway. (and not have spent all that money)

Please explain to me how the west pilots can put up a fence.

Until contractual gains are more than the pay raise associated with an upgrade there is no motivation for the east to sign a contract. That remains the same. There are know winners here. The sad part is both sides are dug in so deep they each think there can be.

That works for the f/o's, but what's in it for the captains.

Dug in so deep? I would agree that the east has painted themselves in a corner and they have decided it's going to be all or nothing. Are you suggesting that the west should just give up and accept whatever the east has in store for us?

 

[TWA Dude]

I am glad you had a good nights sleep!

Actually, while I had no trouble falling asleep my toddler has a bad cold so his coughing awakened me many times. Life goes on.

As to my barb at you - I was just stating that you (don't take this personally) or any AOL member have not even attempted to compromise on "our SLI".

AOL is not a representational organization and thus they have no authority to compromise. They can choose to drop the litigation if they wish but with the law on our side that's not the logical thing to do.

In any case, the time for compromise was in front of George Nicolau. At this point it's called conceding. Admit it: you don't want compromise you want concessions. Well, we don't believe concessions are advisable at this time.

It is either Nic or sue.

Correct. I'm glad you understand that.

If it was really a fair methodology - then 10% of all pilots would have been happy and 90% would be unhappy - thats not what actually happened - 100% of the West felt they won the lottery while 90% of the East lost

Really? So this is how the world works: fairness is determined by polling? Oh yeah, like counselor $eham told us, it's the "tyranny of the majority". Need I remind you a federal jury and judge found that your version of fairness violated USAPA's Duty to Fairly Represent the West? And spare me the USAPA talking point about the appeal. The verdict was overturned due to ripeness alone and not merit. If you don't believe me just read the company's request for declaratory judgment.

Your math is a little fuzzy too. One party feels the award was fair and the other party doesn't. That's 50/50 by my math. In any case, it's not a popularity contest. The merger was a windfall for the East and Nicolau felt the West was due some compensation.

We (West and East) have to meet in the middle of the street.

Tell it to the judge.

Believe me when I throw this out - there aren't as many East pilots that want to bid PHX as there are senior West FO's who would bid Captain out East in a heartbeat, or West Captains that want to bid wide-body in PHL. Thats the truth - whether you want to admit it or not.

Even if true, irrelevant.

So until the "AOL" group accepts that - we stay separate and the East pilots get some major attrition in 2 years and 2 months - and you get to keep your position in PHX.

We know. More windfall for the East. Gloating about your windfall at our expense says a lot about you -- and none of it's good.

 

[Cowboy75]

Heads up East and West pilots.

USAPA is sending out over 140 Section 29 (pay up or get terminated) letters. I understand that many are for unpaid assessments for the pension investigation.

 

[Jim]

Heads up East and West pilots.

USAPA is sending out over 140 Section 29 (pay up or get terminated) letters. I understand that many are for unpaid assessments for the pension investigation.

Why would a west pilot be assessed to investigate the east's pensions? Another greedy USAPA move.

 

[MCDU]

Why would a west pilot be assessed to investigate the east's pensions? Another greedy USAPA move.

that does not make sense.

M

 

[Guppiedriver]

Believe me when I throw this out - there aren't as many East pilots that want to bid PHX as there are senior West FO's who would bid Captain out East in a heartbeat, or West Captains that want to bid wide-body in PHL. Thats the truth - whether you want to admit it or not.

Now how the hell could you know this? It's not the truth, it's some WAG that you pulled out of your arse.

 

[Jim]

that does not make sense.

M

That's because you're a USAPA apologist with no integrity.

 

[Metrojet]

Now how the hell could you know this? It's not the truth, it's some WAG that you pulled out of your arse.

Guppiedriver -

It is called staying involved by talking to many pilots about current events and asking about where people live and knowing their lifestyles.

How many West pilots live in the middle of the country like Minneapolis, Chicago, St. Louis, Dallas, New Orleans, Kansas, Houston, or Denver. If your going to the airport to commute and their is a flight to PHL or CLT and a flight to PHX - and you can hold a Captain's bid out East, or a FO bid in PHX - where ya gonna go? It is about a 2 hour flight either way.

And as to East pilots bidding West - most former PSA folks were smart and moved East years ago when they sold their high dollar CA homes.

Anyway - re-read post 34 paragraph 12 by TWA Dude - where he says "even if true - irrelevant". If I were way off base on my analysis - wouldn't he maybe have said totally false?

Metrojet