Were watching you! (Cockpit Cameras)

[DesertFalcon]

WASHINGTON (AP) -- Airline pilots are dead set against putting cameras in cockpits as safety officials step up the pressure to require them as an aid to accident investigation and prevention.

The National Transportation Safety Board launched a two-day hearing Tuesday to renew its call for all civilian planes to be equipped with crash-resistant cockpit image recorders.

Four years ago, the NTSB recommended that the FAA require large aircraft to be equipped with cameras, but the FAA still hasn't done it. Subsequently, NTSB added small planes to their recommendation........


<>Read the entire story at:

http://www.cnn.com/2004/TRAVEL/07/28/cockpit.videos.ap/index.html

 

[LearAv8r]

I hope they put em up....that way I will have somewhere to hang up my hat.....;-)

 

[jetexas]

Four years ago, the NTSB recommended that the FAA require large aircraft to be equipped with cameras, but the FAA still hasn't done it. Subsequently, NTSB added small planes to their recommendation........

The NTSB has also recommended for a very long time that our rest rules be revised. If the FAA takes action on something it should be that not this stupid camera idea.

 

[GogglesPisano]

Let's not forget to thank those who are fighting this ... namely ALPA.

 

[BEXFlyer]

Before Start Checklist:

1. Cockpit Camera............................................................Covered

 

[Bluto]

What's wrong with them? Do you guys pull the CVR CB too? They'll only be used in accidents. Right?

 

[OneBadLT123]

i wouldnt mind a cabin camera, isnt that where all the "unlawful" actions occur anyway?

 

[Airpiraterob]

theyre puting TV into every seatback....how much more is a small B&W camera? ive seen em for as little as $70 each. the small easily imtegrated ones...id like to see am in every seat back so you can watch every passenger to make sure theyre not a terrorist...(or to find the hot ones being the pre-vert that i am.). why not put cameras in every nook and cranny of an airport and house and car.....

noones crossed the line of big brother yet...and i dont think the cockpit cam is crossing it yet....but all it takes is one peek at it from management and all of a sudden youre canned for some unrelated BS something-or-other.....and they "never looked at it"

 

[jetexas]

Maybe we should install cameras in all these federal regulators offices so we can watch them? Afterall, they are getting paid by taxpayers. We aren't. Shouldn't WE be concerned that they are not goofing off, standing around wasting our money, etc.?

 

[wms]

What's wrong with them? Do you guys pull the CVR CB too? They'll only be used in accidents. Right?

Wrong. Part of our contract talks now is that the company doesn't want any limitations on how they use cockpit cameras if they become available. As far as CVRs, the FAA can only use them for information in accidents, but there are no limits on the company's use. If there were legal limits, contracts would not have to address CVR usage by the company.

 

[Bluto]

You avatar says it all... ya sure.. they'd only be used in accident investigation

Have you seen CVR tapes being used for anything else? You think only democrats would be interested in aviation safety? I can understand the desire not to have a camera in there but I think the potential aid to accident investigators is great. If we can get assurance that it won't be used for punitive purposes, I think it'd be a great idea. We're already audio-taped all the time, all of our control inputs are monitored, it's not like we have any privacy as it is. Considering the benefits, why are you all to vehemently against it?

 

[apdsm]

This is the reason...

...But one reason pilots oppose image recorders is that such promises were broken after they agreed to the introduction of cockpit voice recorders in the 1960s, the Air Line Pilots Association said in a statement submitted to the board.

Pilots had been told the tapes would be used for accident investigations only and wouldn't be publicly disclosed. But in 1989, a 6 o'clock news program played the cockpit voice recorder from Delta Flight 1141, which crashed on takeoff at Dallas-Fort Worth International Airport. Out of the 108 passengers and crew aboard, 14 were killed.

Though laws were subsequently passed that limited the use of cockpit voice recordings, they are still used against pilots in criminal proceedings and disciplinary actions by employers, the statement said...

 

[FN FAL]

I'm not for or against the cameras. I can see how it could be demoralizing for the crew, and I can see how it could be an aid in accident investigation.

Considering all that has happened since 9/11 and the Egypt Air crash, I think the public is not so much worried about what pilots think when it comes to these cameras, I don't think legislators are either. It seems as if there has been quite a lot of interest in putting these cameras in cockpits and I honestly doubt ALPA is going to be able to win against having them put in, in the long run.

When they propose this bill to other legislators, all they gotta do is show the mug shots of the so called drunk America West pilots or bring up the firing of the SWA fligth crew that was playing in their undies up in the cockpit...and I can see the bill getting signed.

The public is going to look at it this way, if convenience stores use cameras to watch candybars, potato chips or the cash register, why shouldn't video cameras be used to ensure safety when human lives are involved?

 

[XGmaninGA]

I agree that we are probably fighting a losing battle against cockpit cameras. Of course, that's why God invented Post-it Notes.

 

[FN FAL]

I agree that we are probably fighting a losing battle against cockpit cameras. Of course, that's why God invented Post-it Notes.

Hey, thanks for not beating me up on posting my observation on this. Like I said, I see the pilot's side of this and I see reasoning behind why they think they need these cameras, good, bad or indifferent.

From the sidelines it appears as if demand for this legislation has maintained momentum for quite some time.

It is a good thing that ALPA does take airline pilot interests to the "Hill", otherwise you guys would be putting up with all kinds of unimaginable crap that came down the Hill in the form of "knee jerk" legislation.

I think the prolification of jets and expansion at the regionals has fueled this paranoia. I also think world current events has fueled this paranoia. I also think that with the average airline passenger being worth a million, to a million point five and growing, that manufacturers, airline companies, insurance companies and the feds, are going to want to have access to more data in the event of an accident or incident...think about it, a full 50 seat regional jet has a potential for over 50 million in product liability lawsuits riding in back, every time it takes off.

They are going to argue their paranoia with all the news articles about things that we have already read about here, like the comair pilot that got tackled by the cops while stealing from a pro-ball clubs memrobilia collection(remember the guy with the bandaged head?), the drunk airline pilots stories, the Egypt Air case, the yet to be solved American Airlines post 9/11 crash in New Jersy, TWA 800, the major airline pilot that is being accused of providing minors with drugs and booze in order to film sex movies, the list goes on and on is only limited by information available in court records and aviation accident report databases.

Meanwhile the pilots argument is going to be...

...But it makes me nervous!

...We don't like it!

...We think it costs to much and the money should be spent elsewhere!

I agree that the money could be spent elsewhere, and that the data will only come in handy in the few cases where airline crashes do occur, seeing as airline travel is the safest mode of transportation.

However, having been involved in the fight against assault rifle legislation and rediclous crime bill enacments for the better part of 15 years, I feel that the paranoid have found a battle they can win.

 

[wms]

Have you seen CVR tapes being used for anything else?

Yes! A company pulls the CVR and uses it to determine crew fault. They can't use it to determine disciplinary action, but it certainly has an effect. They have also released info from incidents internally that made it to the rank and file, and even recurrent. CVR data should be used for investigations only as they were intended. But companies have shown they can't be trusted for that.

When a Fed jumpseats, they like to make a big deal about how they "own" the jump seat, and that it's only used for other purposes (commuters, mgmt, observation, etc) by their approval. Recording devices should be treated the same way. The FAA should own them and data should only be extracted by them for their purposes. If a third party (the company, ALPA, media) wants access, they should have to request it under the FOI act.

They would be a useful tool for investigating accidents. But company mgmts would use them to spy on employees and to terminate pilots for innocent mistakes. Companies should investigate emails, etc. They own the equipment and people use it for everything but work. But an airplane can only be used for company biz. When you're in a cockpit you're working doing company business, not surfing the net with company equipment.

 

[Bluto]

... Recording devices should be treated the same way. The FAA should own them and data should only be extracted by them for their purposes. If a third party (the company, ALPA, media) wants access, they should have to request it under the FOI act.

They would be a useful tool for investigating accidents. But company mgmts would use them to spy on employees and to terminate pilots for innocent mistakes. Companies should investigate emails, etc. They own the equipment and people use it for everything but work. But an airplane can only be used for company biz. When you're in a cockpit you're working doing company business, not surfing the net with company equipment.

I agree, except I think only the NTSB should have access. Otherwise you'll see the feds using them to issue sterile cockpit violations and all kinds of other garbage when no accident or incident even occurs. You're right on target, though.

 

[Tripower455]

I agree, except I think only the NTSB should have access. Otherwise you'll see the feds using them to issue sterile cockpit violations and all kinds of other garbage when no accident or incident even occurs. You're right on target, though.

If this were the case, then I'd have a little less of a problem with them.

From a pilots standpoint, cameras serve absolutely no constructive purpose. What do they expect to see? After seeing how CVR and DFDR stuff has been used, I say F**K no cameras.

They are a solution to a non existant problem.

 

[ThomasR]

Big Brother

I drove on a Ford Motor advanced technolgy test program for three years. They had cell phones installed in each vehicle that transmitted performance data directly to computers at Ford's main office in Detroit. The cars were wired for a bunch of conditions from steering, braking, speeds, rpm, mpg etc. anything and everything you might think of. Tech. today you can have a similar system placed in your private vehicle to monitor and read out performance. The data is legal for court cases as well and mostly used in families with teenage drivers. There are also recorders on street corners in many cities. They don't seem to be able to stop crime, but if you get on the Internet in Indiana you might be able to watch someone get murdered in New York.

Performance data in aircraft is already recorded in the "black box." I am quite sure the FAA Accident Investigation Board will not be the only people with a key to a cock-pit recorder. I have worked in businesses that used recorders in the work place. They serve only to embarass the employees. I was robbed at gun point once and felt confident they would catch the guy because I knew it would be on tape. Unfortunately the recorder was off that day. You can be sure, however, if you pick a penny up off the floor a company man will be on your ass in two seconds.

Big Brother can kiss by ass.

 

[RJPilott]

It will be a waste of money. I would almost guarantee 90%, if not 99.9% of pilots will cover them up just as someone pointed out in the Before Start Check. Even if they make it a violation to cover the camera, dont underestimate the creativity of a pilot. Cockpits do get dusty, and there is no telling what type of insect could fly onto the lens when the aircraft is powered down.