Wellstone King Air Info!!

[beytzim]

I just saw Greg Feith at the airport (former NTSB lead investigator) and asked him about the Wellstone King Air.

He said, "on approach, the King Air A100 slowed to 85 knots and was full of ice. It stalled, simple as that."

Well, there you go.

 

[irapilot]

"Well, there you go." What does that mean?

As the Brits say - "it would not be helpful at this time, without all the facts, to make any statements as to the cause of this accident."

It would be better, I think, to wait until all the facts are in and evaluated before coming to a conclusion about any accident.

 

[Flywrite]

Wow, this guy should still be an investigator. It would save so much time. No more waiting for official findings, just spout opinions a few weeks after a crash.

Sorry, if I sound like i'm busting on you, I dont mean it to sound like that, it just amazes me that a former lead NTSB guy goes around saying things like this. The first rule of accident investigating is make no assumptions. Just how does this guy know all this? The plane had no CVR of FDR, making the investigation pretty tough for the folks actually doing it, never mind someone watching from the sidelines.

 

[cvsfly]

The plane should have had a CVR if they were operating with 2 crewmembers. Anyone know if the co-pilot/SIC was a legal company pilot or a warm body observer pilot put there last minute on the request of the co-pilot or customer?

 

[Flywrite]

Carol Carmody (acting chair of the NTSB) stated that the aircraft had no CVR.
My copy of FAR135 is from last year and I've never flown 135 so I may be wrong, but if the airplane had an approved autopilot it could be operated single pilot, and therefore exempt from the CVR requirement.
I'm getting this from 135.105 and 135.151, but feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[cvsfly]

That's true. The single pilot authorization isn't automatic. Approved auto-pilot, Ops Sec for auto-pilot, SIC in lieu of auto-pilot, and training and checking. They can still use a qualified SIC if you have this. If they were using a qualified and legal SIC, they may have required the CVR also. Any thoughts?

 

[mike]

If the PIC holds a LOA for single pilot IFR operations (autopilot)the aircraft does not need a CVR regardless of the number of crew members the Company wishes to dispatch. We did this with King Air 200's years ago. Two pilots are not required by aircraft certification or regulation.

 

[501261]

That's true. The single pilot authorization isn't automatic. Approved auto-pilot, Ops Sec for auto-pilot, SIC in lieu of auto-pilot, and training and checking. They can still use a qualified SIC if you have this. If they were using a qualified and legal SIC, they may have required the CVR also. Any thoughts?

I have some experience with this, one of the charter companies I used to work for flew a couple of King Airs 90&200's, and none of them had CVR's.

As PIC's we would all take our checkrides and have the A/P authorized in lieu of SIC's. Since we were all technically capable of SP operations a CVR was not required.

We also had SIC's and they were all qualified and given a 135 checkride, and they flew with us on most trips (hardly ever doing any SP work).

The big gotcha here is that once an SIC became required to do the trip, we couldn't do it because the operation now needed a CVR. For instance if the A/P broke, the airplane was grounded because now an SIC was required by regulation. Or to do a reduced VIS Takeoff an SIC is required, thereby requiring a CVR, thereby grounding us.

Of course this is a really hidden reg; it wasn't till our 3rd POI was around did he inform us that CVR's were required for trips that "required" an SIC. A lot of charter companies simply assume that since the Airplane is certified for SP ops and their certificate allows SP ops they don't need a CVR. I'm sure some POI's look the other way too since they would rather see a properly certified SIC (our SIC's were always properly certified) in the cockpit, than making someone fly around SP because they don't have a CVR.

"Carol Carmody (acting chair of the NTSB) stated that the aircraft had no CVR."

I have also heard that Wellstone's plane did NOT have a CVR.

"He said, "on approach, the King Air A100 slowed to 85 knots and was full of ice. It stalled, simple as that."

I'd be surprised if Feith really said that, any accident investigation is never "as simple as that". Why was he carrying around a load of ice, did the boots not work, was he not properly trained in severe weather avoidance, did the Republicans sabotage the flux capacitor
?

 

[mike]

**CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**, the flux capacitor!

 

[flydog]

I was at MEM last week and i saw Elvis

He told me the CIA poisoned him because he knew who killed JFK

 

[beytzim]

Geesh!

I report on something quite interesting and get busted on by everyone.

Look, I think you guys have been watching too much TV lately. Greg Feith is one of the best investigators the NTSB has ever had. When you cut through all the red tape and bs, a good investigator can add two and two together and figure it out real easy.

The current NTSB managemant are a bunch of morons (Have you listened to their press briefings: "the aircraft crash site is south of the field, 090 degrees to be exact." Huh?)

Instead of realizing you just got a clear, straight reason for the accident, you prefer a 70 page probable cause. Fine, whatever.

 

[Flywrite]

A good investigator puts two and two together, then looks for three, four, and five before adding it up.

 

[Lrjtcaptain]

The right seater on that flight was a pilot for another company flying a citiation V out of minny. Some of my pax have ridden with him before...I heard the F.O. claimed to have been an old A.Eagle pilot yet they had never heard of him not to mention that fact that he was a convicted felon

 

[FL000]

You and I, who know nothing about the crash, should wait until final findings come out to form opinions about the crash. But the fact is that at least several people probably already know what caused it. There's a pretty good chance that Mr. Feith, with his past work history and plenty of former colleagues who still do work for the NTSB, also knows what happened.

However, if I were Mr. Feith, I'd probably keep my mouth shut, and if I were beytzim, I probably wouldn't have used his name.

 

[habubuaza]

I agree with Beytzim. I also have a friend who is a regional head for the NTSB and it's not uncommon for them to know rather quickly what caused an accident. Waiting for a full report is a legality. I mean a full report doesn't necessarily mean that they know exactly what happened there are many inconclusive investigations that have final, full reports. Knowing what causes an accident and "final reports" are not as related as you guys think.

 

[avratdwc]

Hey guys and gals, going to FSI tommorow for the 200. I am interested to see what they are saying about this and if they are doing any icing scenarios in the sim.

 

[irapilot]

Yep - go ahead - make a mistake or screw the pooch and there will be lots of "experts" and "know it alls" with lots to say - a true professional stays objective, humble, reserves judgment until all the facts are in and never speculates in public. Just remember, someday it could be you.

 

[DCitrus9]

lrjetcaptain, you sound like the media with your comment about the FO being a convicted felon. If this in any way contributed to the crash I would be interested to hear it. Otherwise it becomes simply a smear campaign on the FO. People make mistakes, and most people learn from them...

 

[conquest]

Wellstone

The FAA application says the last 5 years. His conviction was 10 years ago. I bet they change the app.

 

[mike]

NTSB

The NTSB website has expanded the prelim report. They state the aircraft had slowed to 85 knots and give the AWOS weather.

Normally you can get information about crewmembers, but I could not find anything. I don't know if that means anything.

Be safe.

Mike.