Warren Grove Gunnery Range

[Birdstrike]

12000 acres burned in 1999 by the PA ANG. Then in 2001 the NJ ANG's 177th burned another 1500 acres. In 2004 an F-16 out of Andrews put 25 rounds of cannon fire into the roof of a vacant school in Little Egg Harbor Township. And now the 177th just ignited another 17000 acres including homes this time. Training is training and mistakes happen, granted. But this was one toke over the line, so to speak. Warren Grove is now in the cross-hairs of quite a few "concerned citizens" of south Jersey, my community. What should I tell them, save it or better to move it? Are there better alternatives anywhere around?

 

[milplt]

The rounds through the school was a unique incident - could have happened anywhere based on how it happened. The fires are a different story. My questions would be to range management - along the lines of why weren't there better methods of preventing fires from spreading off range?

Proper fire blocks, controlled burning, quicker response, etc. could have prevented the fires from spreading off range - especially considering there is a history with that. And, if the fire threat is high, how about prohibiting the use of flares?

Instead of jeopardizing national security by closing yet another range (ala Puerto Rico), the questions need to be asked to find out why this couldn't have been prevented. Closing ranges does jeopardize national security because those training squares are hard enough to come by now - much less having to devote two sorties (out-back) to fill one square on a distant range.

 

[milplt]

After reading my previous post, I think the tone sounds different than my intent. Instead of national security, I should have used the phrase "the ability to fight wars". Barely maintaining proficiency and or currencies (which is what happens when ranges are far away) is much, much different than being comfortable with the weapons deliveries. We don't need our pilots going to war at anything less than their best and endangering their lives and, more importantly, those on the ground because they are rusty from lack of training/proficiency. Have you seen those videos lately - CAS is BIG C close nowadays.

My intent was to show that their is a wide range between status quo and shut it down when it comes to these things. I have no idea how this range has been operated or who operates it, but I wouldn't find it hard to beleive that the management was not very proactive in identifying and mitigating all of the risks within their power. It is a gov't facility after all.

 

[hindsight2020]

I'm glad you brought up Vieques. That is an excellent illustration of the hypocritical essence of the "support our troops" mantra. It's all good until it's on MY backyard. Now, granted, there was additional political animosity in the case of Vieques due to the historic territory status indecision of Puerto Rico and the general fanaticism that engulfs cultural identity down there (I grew up there, I've seen it first hand). People in the states were generally unsympathetic to the arguments pertaining to the Vieques range. Having this hiccup happen in New Jersey brings into perspective that at the end of the day, nobody is willing to put life and limb for what to them is in the end the pursuit of appearing supportive, not actually being supportive.

That said, I do not subscribe to the idea that losing one's home or life in a ordinance-related forest fire is just price to show one's support for the military and it's need for readiness, in that respect those toting the readiness argument at all costs need to re-evaluate the unilateral way in which they paint the argument.

Are there ways one can mitigate these issues? Perhaps. I think a more fundamental angle is going straight to the source, the community. In the end it is the community that will set the tone of how they want to feel about the issue and ultimately how they want to be perceived by the military and the country. I wouldn't fault them for pushing towards the closing of the facility, but that's a position they have to develop, after all it's their houses and schools, not somebody else's.

You know, this argument is not unique, the same thing happens with communities adjacent to military installations. It's no mystery bases are good for the adjacent economy but BAD for communities right outside the gate. Military members always speed thru the gate and scoff how ghetto these places are, and would never seriously consider housing options there; so there ya go, if you don't susbcribe to the idea that the prescence of said base keeps the outlying communities at the depressed value you're drinking too much of the Kool-Aid. Should we close that base too? Of course not, but to dismiss the negative aspects of the overall impact a military installation has on the immediate community is evidence of the point I made in the beginning, that people may say one thing, but in the end act in self-interest.

As for the particular range in question, I am not well-informed on what are the regional options for alternate facilities and how this or other communities are affected by changing the current use of said facilities. I agree that moving all ops to the Nevada Desert (for argument's sake) is not the most practical avenue. We'll see how this one turns out.

 

[LearLove]

In 1983 a PA ANG O-2 started a fire just outside of the range with a target marking rocket.

That area used to be very "remote" to homes but as of the last ten years Waretown and vicinety has grown due to the $$$ of homes to the north thus the encroachment on the Grove.

If you look into the valley out by the Gap (the pa range) you can see where there are homes being built to the east developing twards the Gap.

 

[ExAF]

Encroachment

Not much different than encroachment at airports/air bases around the world. When the range/airport/air base is there first, I have no sympathy for those that build/buy nearby. Thay knew it was there. Could that be why the land there is so "affordable?" Keep the range.

 

[Birdstrike]

I have no sympathy for those that build/buy nearby. Thay knew it was there. Could that be why the land there is so "affordable?" Keep the range.

I don't think that's going to cut it today. This isn't 1966, it's 2007 and the people in south Jersey now have more political clout than you or I. The Pinelands are filling in with development and Warren Grove isn't an economic powerhouse to be preserved when there's money to be made. Like Oceana's opponents, the opposition is looking for a reason to shut it down. This is another one of those situations where either the military "fixes" the problem itself in a way the community "gets" or the politicians/ community activists will fix it for them.

 

[ExAF]

Fix It

This is another one of those situations where either the military "fixes" the problem itself in a way the community "gets" or the politicians/ community activists will fix it for them.

If there is a problem with range maintenance and fire protection I completely agree with the "fix it or else." The range has to do what is necessary to keep things safe and not burn up the surrounding area. If they can't maintain it, they lose it. There comes a point when you can no longer "do more with less." If it is just because the surrounding community has grown too close to the range and now they don't like the aesthetics any more, then too F'n bad.

 

[tomgoodman]

Not in my (new) backyard

Not much different than encroachment at airports/air bases around the world.

Ain't it the truth! I used to fly over DFW when they were just building the airport -- hardly even a cow nearby. Then people build right up to the fence and squawk about noise. Reportedly, the same thing is happening at DIA, which was even more remote. But, as Birdstrike says, clout is clout.

 

[Birdstrike]

If it is just because the surrounding community has grown too close to the range and now they don't like the aesthetics any more, then too F'n bad.

That ain't it. It's that they don't like the aesthetics of their houses buring down. There's also strong sentiment to keep it as a range; the Piney's like their solitude and don't want to see development take away more good scrub pine forests. Can't grow good cranberries that way. I suspect that if DoD throws a pile of money NJ's way to provide 24/7 on-site fire support, better commo, etc, instead of putting the burden on rousting the local volunteer fire departments, any fires that do occur will be dealt with before they go off the reservation.