Warning! Al Qaida SAMs Targeting You!

[atpcliff]

Hi!

I just saw this headline article at www.salon.com

"The air industry's worst nightmare:
Just days ago, national security executives met secretly with airline CEOs to warn them that al-Qaida may be planning to fire shoulder-launched missiles at commercial jets in the U.S. There's virtually no defense."

I will summarize it because you have to subscribe to read the complete text. (I subscribe, and it's my favorite non-aviation website.)

The TSA hosted the meeting which warned airline execs that Al-Qaida may try and shoot down our airliners as they landed and took off from American airports.

The US Military found over 5 thousand shoulder-fired SAMS in Afghanistan, and they are available on the black market for under $100K.

Since the 1970s, 29 of the of the 42 civilian aircraft hit by SAMs worldwide were downed, some up to altitudes of 11,000'.

The missles are as small as 5' and 35 lbs. One individual can get off two shots at a jet. They travel at 1500 mph with a range of up to 4 miles.

The AF is outfitting their large jets with countermeasures that cost about $3m per aircraft.

The CIA does not have any hard evidence that SAMs have been brought to the US, but intel officials believe that they are already here.

The intel experts say an attack at an American airport is not a matter of if, but when.

I heard of a Condor pilot (German cargo airline) that had experienced more than one SAM attack while flying in an A-320 in Africa.

El Al aircraft have anti-SAM capabilities, and they are an option on new Gulfstreams.

I hope to God this doesn't happen, and I hope if your plane is hit (or mine), you can land it safely, and without any deaths.

Cliff
GRB

 

[VFR on Top]

Flare dispensers might not be a bad idea, but jinking in any useful manner would probably just overstress the airframe (and passengers)

 

[Schoolbus]

Thats funny, I could just see my Cessna armed with guns and things!

 

[PilotoHalcon]

If under attack the advertised "g" limits are out of the window. Fly it like it will be your airplanes last flight. Just be smooth. Ask your self if you would rather have some popped rivits and some wrinkled skin (On the airplane) or be hit. And if you live through it so will your passengers. Don't worry about spilling drinks.
j

 

[altimaklr]

If a missle hit a large aircraft, depending on where it hits I bet you could still land...

 

[PilotoHalcon]

I'll bet if you were shot, depending on where you were hit you would still live. The name of the game is not to get hit. Good intel and training. Now get back to work.
j

 

[dispatchguy]

The most likely weapon, if true, would be the SA-7 GRAIL. For those military crewmembers who can get a current copy of the USAF Threat Reference Guide and Countertactics, the old MCM 3-1, and the AFTTP, disregard, but for us open source only shmoes, check out:

http://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/missile/row/sa-7.htm

Note that the missile can pull 6 Gs - I doubt any airliner could pull 6 Gs to get inside the missiles turning radius, especially when low and slow.

Flares would be cool, but would you want your airlines rampers loading them? I loaded them in the USAF on F15s (57th FIS - NAS Keflavik) and F16s (310th FS Luke AFB), and I dont think rampers should get to play with high explosives like that

 

[Flywrite]

I doubt if anyone will be getting flares on airliners. I think the Gulfstream and other commercial IR countermeasures systems are similar to the laser based systems seen on most military helos. I'm sure some of you Army guys can explain this better, but I understand they use a laser modulated to the same wayelength as a SAM's IR seeker to confuse the weapon and send it off course.

On a related note, any of you guys read about or see the pictures of the Hawker that was hit by a Grail over Africa about ten years ago? It blew the right engine clean off, but the mighty Hawker made it down with no serious injuries. What an airplane...

 

[El Cid Av8or]

I doubt if anyone will be getting flares on airliners. I think the Gulfstream and other commercial IR countermeasures systems are similar to the laser based systems seen on most military helos.

Yep, that's what those colored mirrored cylinders are for on the military helicopters (I think they have them on some planes too). They are already installed on some foreign and government Gulfstreams and unless I am mistaken, Bombardier was thinking about installing them on some planes too. On the Gulfstreams, they are at the base of the tail and pretty much take the place of the tail cone. Anyone have one mounted on their GA single yet?

 

[pilotyip]

Watch?

They normally will come form the rear, how do you watch them?

 

[Saabslime]

For those heat seeking missles, since we're not likely to get flares installed, just jettison the flight attendant while he/she's holding a nice hot pot of coffee and hope for the best.

 

[flywithastick]

Re: Watch?

They normally will come form the rear, how do you watch them?

second on this... IR SAMs use passive guidance. You gotta see it to know it's after you. right?! Countermeasures can only help if you know you've got one coming.

 

[CCDiscoB]

SA-7

The SA-7 is a firecracker compared to what's out there. During Desert Storm an F-18 recovered at it's base with one stuck in the engine, which was still running.

At worst the impact would separate the motor from it's wing pylon. Good thing a max gross weight 777 doesn't have any problems flying around single engine. Now if they launched three or four of them at once, then you may have a problem.

 

[Eagleflip]

CCDiscoB's correct--an SA-7 may be enough to give you a bad day, but not totally ruin it.

And give up on that maneuving stuff. (A), given the fact that these are amazingly small missiles that travel at very high speed, you won't see it in flight unless you just happen to be looking at the right place at exactly the right time.

(B), Dispatchguy is correct--you aren't going to have 8 Gz available to pull into this puppydog to defend against it even if you do see it.

Let's just hope that our Homeland Security Administration is on the ball and catch these goombahs before they get any big ideas on how to attack next.

 

[PilotoHalcon]

The Hawker was hit in the engine but the warhead never detonated. Just knocked the engine off. And those "colored mirrors" are the ALQ144 system used on most of our Army Helos and Air Force One. Look between the 1-2 and the 3-4 engines. A good missile operator will launch from the rear to get a better heat signature and the crews will not likely see it coming.
j