War and America

[AlphEcho]

If you are against an Iraq war, that's fine, but please don't wring your hands, shed a tear, and use the excuse that "our military will just be stretched too thin." The armed forces were designed to carry out two major operations simultaneously on opposite sides of the world, and are more than capable of tracking Al-Qaeda and deposing Saddam. You people's lack of faith in America's military ability is disturbing and severely unfounded in fact.

Secondly, I think it's amusing that nearly all the people that are against a war to hold Saddam to UN resolutions are people that advocate the UN as the only means to solving international problems. Do you fail to see that the UN itself will have absolutely no credibility whatsoever if it keeps passing resolutions and watching them get ignored time after time? In many respects, a military operation to hold Iraq accountable is the only chance the United Nations has to avoid becoming what the League of Nations was when it capitulated to Hitler in 1939: essentially useless.

What you people don't want to admit is that the credibility of any UN resolution is only as good as the word of the President of the United States. I doubt that France or Germany, Norway or Russia will take it upon themselves to enforce the will of the UN that they seem to hold so dear.

Please...I'd like to just see you try to say the situation is otherwise.

 

[braidkid]

I think it's as simple as this...
The UN asked Iraq to comply and to reveal it's weapons of mass destruction and they did not.
They are asking for a spanking and they're going to get it.

 

[rumpletumbler]

Typhoon,

I think the reason the President is pursuing it as is is that he is going to do it right and to do it right he wants and should have support. I don't think this one is going to be pretty. To do things that aren't pretty you need to have folks who might say "I don't like what your doing so I'll fling a nuke at you on your side."

RT

 

[310]

I hear that Jane accepted Christ- so she doesn't burn

and Mar--UNPROVOKED!!!!???
I guess we should have waited till Hitler invaded us to fight Germany? The U.N. has to create no fly zones to protect people in Iraq and Iraq fires on US and British planes on a regular basis and you claim their is no provocation? Get real.

 

[enigma]

(3) Right now, the United States is the biggest black widow in the yard...and I don't want anybody else trying to step on us.

Yes, that's the problem with this analogy. You forget that He waited until things were looking grim at Enron and people were starting to forget about Osama bin Whats-his-face.

Typhoon,

What makes you have such a poor opinion of your country? The USofA is the biggest black widow of them all? Come On Man, did you really mean that?

I'm going to make a poor attempt to quote an essay I read earlier.

When the German teenagers marched into Europe, the locals trembled.
When the Japanese teenagers marched into the south pacific, the locals trembled.
When the Russian teenagers marched in to Czech, the locals trembled.
When the Chinese teenagers marched into Tieniaman Square, the locals trembled.
When the Iraqi teenagers marched into Kuwait, the locals trembled.
........
When the American teenagers march into a town, the locals cheer and wave American Flags. They come to liberate, not occupy. Rebuild, not rape. Provide opportunity, not oppression. That IS OUR HISTORY.
Even Clinton was trying to help the oppressed peoples in most of his wars of the month.

I'm sure that a dissenter can come up with a small number of occurances when the USofA was imperialistic, but history shows that the vast majority of military actions undertaken by this country have been solely to liberate or protect a people. BTW, did you know that in 11 of the last 12 actions where the US military became involved in a Muslim dispute, that we were on the side of the Muslims? Name me one country that the USofA occupies against the will of its inhabitants.

You and I the American taxpayer and fighting man, supply peace and freedom to the entire freekin world. You should be ashamed.

How dare you call the liberators of: France ,South Korea, the Philipines, Italy, Belgium, Poland, Indo-China, Kuwait, etc, a bunch of black widows. How dare you call Douglas MacArther (sp?)
the man almost totally responsible for rebuilding Japan into a modern, SOVEREIGN, nation (after we kicked their tail in a war they started) a black widow.

BTW, the energy industry deregulation which lead to the rise and fall of ENRON came about under the CLINTON admin. Just because ClintonNewsNetwork made daily attempts to link ENRON to Bush didn't make it true.

Ramblin rant now over, I really can't believe you called us Black widows, I must not be seeing something. Sheesh.

regards,
8N

 

[mar]

What Enigma's not seeing...

Enigma--This is what you're not seeing: Most of the people of the countries you listed (France, South Korea, the Philipines, Italy, Indo-China (Viet Nam), Kuwait...) want us the hell out of their country.

Now I agree, the simple fact that we may have a NATO base established in their country doesn't qualify as "occupation", per se, but the fact remains: There is a ton of bile generated by our military presence in these countries.

The Kuwaitis may have the shortest memory--they actually open fire on Americans.

The South Koreans, Italians, Japanese and Phillipinos are content to just merely protest--but still, they want us out.

Fine, we helped them rebuild *50 years ago*. Ancient freeking history my friend. We need to operate in the here and now. Their college students were only born 20 years ago.

At the risk of repeating myself: How much money could we divert back into our own country if we closed those bases; if we stop supporting Israel; if we refuse to have a long term presence in Afghanistan/Iraq/Pakistan?

As far as I'm concerned, that's food out of American children's mouths (food, housing, education and health care)...oops...there's the bleeding heart darnit.

Yes. Maybe it is much better to hemmorage that money in some god-forsaken backwards medieval dictatorship--sorry that wasn't very PC but I've never been.

Mr. 310 wrote: "UNPROVOKED!!!!???
I guess we should have waited till Hitler invaded us to fight Germany? The U.N. has to create no fly zones to protect people in Iraq and Iraq fires on US and British planes on a regular basis and you claim their is no provocation? Get real."

I respond: That's right. No provocation.

You seem to miss the small point that Iraq happens to be a sovereign nation. Maybe you forgot that Iraq (one sovereign nation) invaded Kuwait (another sovereign nation--as opposed to a territory of the US). We meddled (or liberated, depending on your view) and installed the no fly zone in their country.

The no fly zone is not in our country.

Iraq has never made any advance on our country. And as I stated earlier the terrorism link is a red herring.

As for your Hitler comparison...Why does everything always have to come back to WWII and Hitler?

Can't you find a more original example to make a point?

The truth is: We stayed out of WWII until we were directly attacked in Hawaii.

There are a lot of other Hitlers in the world we have nothing to do with.

I'm tired now. I don't know how else to say it. Things in America would be so much better if we would turn inside our borders and focus there: Stop exporting jobs; Let the world fight their own wars; Spend our taxes on ourselves.

The problem with business in America is that it doesn't invest in America. American business doesn't care about Americans. And since the politicos are bought and sold by American business (not to mention the media) the entire power structure has shifted their narrow little focus over-seas where things are cheaper and they can distract themselves from the serious problems we have in the US.

It's just really pathetic. I'm sad for America.

Democracy and the Constitution sold out for market share.

Jefferson, Franklin and the rest must be crying in their graves.

I'm out.

 

[Draginass]

Sadaam wants to be the undisputed ruler of the mideast. If you don't believe that, you're either a fool or and idiot. The rest of the mideast leaders, especially the Saudi's are cowards and hypocrites that hide behind the US, all the while telling us how bad we are.

In order to satisfy his lust for power in the mideast, Sadaam is just stupid enough to let a NBC weapon loose on Israel in hopes of unifying the virilent jew-hating "arab street" in the region. If that happens, the Israelis will respond with extreme force and the mideast will spiral out of control to the severe detrement of the rest of the world.

Mar's short-sighted isolationist agenda represents small scale thinking on a purely tactical level. It's that kind of thinking that brought the world untold carnage and destruction in the past. Ignoring it doesn't make a threat go away.

Luckily we have leaders like Bush, Cheney, Powell, and Rice that have a long term strategic view of world security. Could I wind up on furlough because of a war in Iraq? Yes. But, that is much preferable to an almost certain NBC exchange in the mideast. If you think putting Sadaam Hussien in the dustbin of history would be costly in blood and treasure, try having him as dictator of the mideast. Once he has nuclear weapons, the entire game changes. When you have someone with a nuclear weapon that doesn't care about the suffering of his country, it's people, it's economy, and it's standing in the world community, then that person becomes very very dangerous.

As far as "justification" for a war, the administration is not stupid enough to show it's cards right now. I'll bet that prior to the start of hostilities that the U.S. will present irrefutable proof of the Iraqi regime's intentions. Any hostilities would probably be fairly quick and result in Sadaam and his sadist son's hanging upside-down and dead from lamposts in Bagdad . . . at the hands of the Iraqi's themselves. This regime consists of vile, evil people that have punished the Iraqi people and threatened the world community enough. No more excuses, no more fuzzy-thinking rationalizations, no more pontificating. Enough talk, time to act.

 

[chawbein]

I agree with mar,

Let's pull out of France, the Phillipines, Germany, Japan, etc....

How about we let those third-world sh!t holes drown in their own filth and decay. We could take that money and build some more bombers, fighters, and tanks that we will surely have to use when the liberal media starts screaming about how these "people" are suffering, and need our help (because we left their sh!t-pile countries).

I think we should let the european p*ssies defend themselfes though. Let's see how long they last without screaming for U.S. help. Then we can tell them to go f*ck themselves and watch and laugh while europe burns to the ground (except Britain of course, they seem to be OK).

Everyone's a critic, but no one is willing to step up and do what is right.

 

[ifly4food]

I for one am not happy about the way this country is going under GW.

Let me begin with a disclaimer: I am not a liberal. I voted for Bush but it was really a vote against the other guy. I am independent but lean to the right.

Now getting back to my rant of the day...

I'm tired of the USA feeling like it needs to be the world's police force. We said things like "Why do they hate us?" after 9/11/01, but fail to realize why. THIS IS WHY!!! We cannot continue sticking our noses in other peoples' business just because we feel we are "the worlds last superpower". It's to satisf our nation's own ego, not the humanitarian facade we call it. They don't want us there. They don't want us imposing our will upon them. They don't trust us. They dragged the bodies of our dead sons down the streets in Somalia. They bombed the towers where our sons lived in Saudi Arabia. They bombed a docked ship in Yemen. The only recourse they have is a guerrila war cagainst the USA called terrorism. Even our "friend", S. Korea has had enough and wants us out.

I feel the problem is our cowboy ways. It's no secret that the world views Americans as a bunch of cowboys. This image isn't helped by Dubya going on TV nightly and making idle threats against countries whith little or no evidence to back him up. Look at the mess his "Axis of Evil" speech stirred up... N. Korea has fallen of the wagon by thumbing its nose at us and getting back into the nuclear weapons development and missile exportation business.
We must call on our fearless leader to stop bullying the rest of the world because we suffered a terrorist attack. Though such an attack was new to US soil, the rest of the world has faced this threat for over 30 years, yet we haven't seen wars over it. They don't share or support our need for revenge. Imagine if Israel declared a "war on terrorism", and attacked their neighbors every time a suicide bomb went off.
It's this need for vengence that concerns me. We are sending a very bad message to the world when we call on Israel to refrain, yet then campaign against any nation that we feel may someday threaten us.

Our image in the worls sucks right now and it's because of our cowboy president bullying the world. Such a campaign will only heighten hatred of the US and make for future terrorist attacks. In our arrogance, our leaders believe we can wipe out terrorism through this series of wars. Of course this isn't possible. Terrorism will exist as long as there are people in the world who feel opressed by the USA and are willing to die for the cause. They see it as a fight for freedom and future terrorists continue to be born every day in every part of the world.

It's not their religion, culture or leaders that drive them to terrorism. If so, then why aren't countries like Canada being attacked? It's in fact because the US imposes itself upon the world and makes these people feel as though they are being oppressed.
If we really want to stop terrorism we should take a lesson from our neighbor to the north and stop bullying the world. Canada participates in the UN and world affairs, but it doesn't bully other nations to impose its beliefs. They give terrorists no reason to attack.

We are setting a bad example for the world. If we truly want to be the leader of the world we should stop the hypocracy and give an image of strong defence of the homeland, yet forgiveness and diplomatic peace, not if you f___with us we'll get you as our President has been promoting. This is what we have been asking other nations to do for years.

It's sad that we suffer one attack and suddenly we get to drop that and attack anyone we feel could harm us in the future. I'm glad Israel didn't take such an attitude 20 years ago or we may have already seen nuclear war in the Middle East. Is that what we're headed for?

 

[ifly4food]

I agree with mar,

Let's pull out of France, the Phillipines, Germany, Japan, etc....

How about we let those third-world sh!t holes drown in their own filth and decay. We could take that money and build some more bombers, fighters, and tanks that we will surely have to use when the liberal media starts screaming about how these "people" are suffering, and need our help (because we left their sh!t-pile countries).

I think we should let the european p*ssies defend themselfes though. Let's see how long they last without screaming for U.S. help. Then we can tell them to go f*ck themselves and watch and laugh while europe burns to the ground (except Britain of course, they seem to be OK).

Everyone's a critic, but no one is willing to step up and do what is right.

There's a lot of truth to this. We could stand back and let these cesspools of the world work their own problems out with little direct effect to our country. Insread, we choose to sway things to our ideals and get drug into yet another war. Personally, I couldn't care less if every nation in the mideast leveled each other. If this wasn't about oil, our government wouldn't care either. We have enough oil hidden under the arctic and in Siberia to supply the world for decades, yet continue to rely on the mideast because it's cheaper and "politically incorrect" to relocate come caribou. This increases our presence over there and thus their hatred. It's time we pull back and find other means to support ourselves. Let these nations that have fought for millenia duke it out without getting drug into their battles. We can use diplomacy through the UN instead of direct force to work for peace.
We will be a stronger and happier nation if we do.

 

[enigma]

Re: What Enigma's not seeing...

Enigma--This is what you're not seeing: Most of the people of the countries you listed (France, South Korea, the Philipines, Italy, Indo-China (Viet Nam), Kuwait...) want us the hell out of their country.


You seem to miss the small point that Iraq happens to be a sovereign nation. Maybe you forgot that Iraq (one sovereign nation) invaded Kuwait (another sovereign nation--as opposed to a territory of the US). We meddled (or liberated, depending on your view) and installed the no fly zone in their country.

Things in America would be so much better if we would turn inside our borders and focus there: Stop exporting jobs; Let the world fight their own wars; Spend our taxes on ourselves.

The problem with business in America is that it doesn't invest in America. American business doesn't care about Americans.


Jefferson, Franklin and the rest must be crying in their graves.

I'm out.

MAR, you know "I luv ya man", but what you're missing is my point. I don't defend our occupation of those countrys, I defend the honor of the our country for liberating them. If we want to debate the need for a continues military presence in the world outside our borders, fine. Just don't agree to label us as BLACK WIDOWS because we happen to be there. The USofA did not make imperialistic advances into any of those countrys, we went in to defend freedom. That does not make us bad. If we were imperialistic, we would have invaded Mexico long ago, they have vast oil fields and other natural resources, but (excepting Pancho Villa vs BackJack Pershing) we have always respected their border.

BTW, Iraq lost sovereignty when it signed surrender papers after being run out of Kuwait if I remember correctly. The no-fly zones are there to keep Soddam from killing the Kurds and other members of his own coutry. He started the war and we (and our allies) agreed to stop when he surrendered. He agree to all of the terms of surrender. He has choosen to violate the terms of his own surrender. He kicked the weapons inspectors out back when Clinton was still president. That in itself was justification for the victors to negate the cessation of war treaty.

One more BTW, I agree on some form of isolation. I don't buy Chinese stuff and that makes it dang hard to shop anymore, and I would suggest that the death of American industry has more to do with consumers who don't give a rats tail about their own job than it does with a big business conspiricy to export jobs.

As far as us being the worlds police force, I say that we leave the rest of the world to itself, with this one warning. "We have a bunch of H-bombs and don't mind using them. The first attack on Americans will result in the placement of one of those nukes on the Capital of the guilty party."

The world has tried appeasment before, I doesn't work. The only thing that some people understand is force. Sorry, but history proves that to be a valid point. Our choice is to either roll over and play dead, or to counter their agression. Rolling over and playing dead only works for possums and not even for them most of the time.

regards,
8N

 

[ifly4food]

Enigma...

Canadians love freedom, yet I don't see their government starting wars for it. I also don't see terrorists plotting to attack the CN tower. Do you think the two could be related?

My point is that we can work for freedom without starting a war. That's about as hypocratic as the Spanish Inquisition killing people in support of Christianity.

 

[chawbein]

That's because the Canadians hide behind the US and Britain for their freedom and security. If they had to be the front of freedom for the world then God help us.

 

[ifly4food]

I don't see the Brits starting said wars either. They're quick to jump on the American bandwagon, but they rarely speak out against anyone first.
With the exception of N. Ireland (truly a microcasm of the US vs. the world mentality) the UK also see little terrorism

 

[TurboS7]

I think that we should just forget the whole thing and let Sad**CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** drop a Scud from H1 right into the middle of Jerusalem full of VX gas. Then we need to back off and let Israel take care of itself.......problem solved. Just don't be downwind of Bagdad........

 

[SDF2BUF2MCO]

From Enigma
"One more BTW, I agree on some form of isolation. I don't buy Chinese stuff and that makes it dang hard to shop anymore, and I would suggest that the death of American industry has more to do with consumers who don't give a rats tail about their own job than it does with a big business conspiricy to export jobs. "

Know this isn't church but amen to that and keep preaching it!

 

[Mr. Irrelevant]

Jeez, Some of the fellas here need to review some history and some seem to have it right. The last thing we should be doing is removing ourselves from all the countries already mentioned.

In regards to the middle east, re-read draginass's response. It is exactly the reason we've been involved with Israel for the last 50 years or so.

Pulling out of Japan and S. Korea would only open up the Far East to China. Do you really think the Chinese (most of whom's leaders are easily 60 years old or much older) have forgotten about the millions of chinese the japanese killed in WWII? This stuff doesn't get forgiven. About 100,000 of those were during the search for Doolittle's B-25 bomber crews.

As for Europe, I'd agree that the French are more of a pain in the ass, and certainly don't seem very grateful for all the Americans lying six feet under in their country. However, the Germans, regardless of their being the enemy in WWII are more than capable in Europe. Culturally, they have always been extremely hard and resourceful workers and it was really should have been no surprise they were mainland Europe's economic powerhouse only 15-20 years after their country was destroyed (rightfully so) in 1945.

Believe me Chawbein, the Germans could kick the shi& out of just about any country in the middle east or Europe.

As for Saddam, he obviously needs to be contained and I don't really know how valid the possibility he would use any weapons against us is. I think George W. and his adminstration may have good points about why Saddam needs to be removed but when he says things like "hey, this is the guy that tried to kill my dad" it makes the rest of the world roll their eyes and turn their heads. This after the infamous "yes, we'll do whatever it takes to defend Taiwan". Basically removing 50 years of carefully crafted diplomacy. Definitely the right guy for handling 9/11 but I'm not so sure he and Mr. Oil are the guys who should be developing ourforeign policy. Just because it was his father's strength doesn't mean it's his.

Ifly......... By the way, we don't really rely on the middle east for much oil. Only about 10%. The middle east's strength is that they hold about 90% of the world's reserves of oil. So when they want to raise the price, we can only keep it suppressed for so long.

Believe it or not, Peace!


Mr. I.

 

[Typhoon1244]

Typhoon, what makes you have such a poor opinion of your country? The USofA is the biggest black widow of them all? Come On Man, did you really mean that?

In the immortal words of Ronald Reagan's speechwriter, "there you go again." Enigma, have you read any posts in this thread prior to that one? Any at all?

Here, I'll try and explain it to you. Rumpletumbler drew an analogy, comparing an antoganistic nation with a developed military to a black widow spider. The point I was trying to make is that most of the nations that we see in that light see us the same way. When most Iraqi or North Korean citizens think of the United States, do they picture a knight in shining armor? Or John Wayne on horseback? I suspect an awful lot of them see us as one big scary camouflaged monster with bundles of Tomahawk missiles under its arms.

No, I don't have a low opinion of our country. The United States is still the greatest nation on this planet...but it has flaws. Yes, believe it or not, I can love something even though it's not perfect. Does being able to acknowledge this nation's shortcomings qualify me as a traitor? Being an American does not mean beaing a blind follower.

Enigma, one of your fellow conservatives said previously that "only the unenlightened say if you're anti-war, your're anti-American...that sounds like some sort of redneck stereotype."

Thank you for the example.

 

[enigma]

In the immortal words of Ronald Reagan's speechwriter, "there you go again." Enigma, have you read any posts in this thread prior to that one? Any at all?

Sure, I read em all. Including the one where you claimed to not want to start a flame war. Then when RT used the blackwidow comment, you decided to call us black widows in an attempt to justify your postion. If you want to debate our role in the world, fine, just don't expect to get by with dishonoring the reasons we are the worlds leader.

In a lot of ways, I agree with you. I think that are far too involved in defending parts of the world that hate us. I think that we would be better off if we didn't think that we could make everything all right. I'm more for sitting back and saying to the rest of the world." We'll leave you along, just don't dare attack a US citizen or US soil, or our US neighbors. If you do, we will retaliate with overwhelming force. Have a good life."

But since we do have a moral obligation to our fellow man, we will continue to attempt to protect human life and freedom.

BTW, the reason that Canada and the rest of our hemishpere have been able to remain at peace is almost solely due to the President James Monroe decreeing that the western hemishpere would be protected against agression from the rest of the world. He realized way back in the early 1800's that by protecting our neighbors we protect ourself.

regards,
8N

 

[chawbein]

You missed the point of that part of my post. I'm sure the EU can take care of itself in regards to the middle east (even though they have almost no way to project power) or within europe for a limited amount of time. My point is that the same people who tell us to stay out of everybody's business are the same ones who will be screaming for help when the sh!t hits the fan. Heck, who knows, if the US pulls out of europe, the Russians might just roll on in and establish democracy in those countries.

The whole point for keeping our fingers in all of those pies is to keep a whole bunch of little problems and tensions from developing into an ENORMOUS problem with dimensions on the scale of WWII, but with WMD. That is why we do it. That is why it is right and moral to do such things. Those who whine about our overseas policies only do so because they want to get their fingers in those pies to use them to their advantage (create their own influence).

What's wrong with being a cowboy? A cowboy is the one who goes in and saves the day when bad things happen. I'm proud of that, and I'm proud that someone has the cajones to go up against the bad people of the world without our "so-called" allies and enemies having to be involved.