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Walmarts of the skies

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SPBRIAN

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 19, 2002
Posts
103
This was sent to me in an e-mail, thought it was interesting and wanted to share it. No opinions noted or needed by the current thread poster who takes no responsibility for the possible BBQ talk that will prevail. :rolleyes:

Labor Issues

Pittsburgh Tribune Review: Up in the air & losing ground


BYLINE: Jonathan Tasini


Wal-Mart has drawn a lot of attention for its low wages, measly benefits and relentlessly anti-union posture. But Wal-Mart is just a symbol of a larger trend that is dragging down the standard of living for American workers. Just consider the once-prestigious airline industry, where workers who in the past made a very good, middle-class living are now giving back billions of dollars in wages, pensions and health benefits.


It's hard to argue against the idea that one or more of the large, traditional airlines will soon close its doors; there are simply too many seats and not enough passengers to fill them. The liquidating airlines will sell off routes and planes to other ailing competitors or to the low-cost Wal-Marts of the skies like JetBlue, AirTran and ATA, which have transformed the business by brutally cutting costs and running maniacally efficient operations. Thousands of jobs will be lost. The remaining workers will face a grim future of lower pay, no healthcare coverage and lost or vastly reduced pensions.


JetBlue, for example, offers no traditional pension, and workers must pay a large part of any healthcare costs. The traditional, larger airlines are sliding backward toward the JetBlue standard. United used to fully cover its employees' healthcare; now workers have to pay 25 percent of the cost. JetBlue's machinist wages are only slightly lower than United's, but that's because of the double-digit percentage cut in United's machinists' wages. JetBlue's pilot pay is nearly competitive with Delta's, but that's only because Delta's pilots, threatened by the airline's possible bankruptcy, just agreed to a 33 percent pay cut with no wage increases for five years.


The low-fare airlines also don't shoulder the burden of the "legacy costs" -- the long-term costs for employee pensions and retiree healthcare that the traditional airlines have. We once valued companies that took such responsibility for the people who had invested their sweat and blood to make the company a success. Now these costs are seen as a drag on competitiveness.


Plethora of unions


How has this happened in what is perhaps the most unionized industry in the country? First, there has been no overall labor plan for an industrywide solution because there are too many unions representing airline industry workers -- a dysfunctional structure symptomatic of the entire labor movement. There are three airline pilots unions, three unions representing flight attendants and seven other unions representing ticket agents, machinists, air traffic controllers and baggage handlers. Each union has separate interests and a separate constituency.


Moreover, unions are too often "company" unions, meaning they are negotiating and managing the rights of workers at a specific airline rather than for the entire industry. When a union agrees to concessions in a bid to save jobs at one airline, inevitably another airline will demand the same of its workers, who are represented by a different union. That leads to an unending cycle of wage cuts aimed at remaining competitive or preserving jobs of airline workers.


What airline workers need is a merger of all the unions into one or two unions. The larger, merged union would encompass the entire industry, allowing labor leaders to set forth one standard for acceptable wages, benefits and work rules, and to better manage the crisis facing airline workers.


The union could also, more effectively, threaten to strike any airline trying to use bankruptcy to cut wages or pensions, as United and US Airways have done and Delta is threatening to do. Even if a strike drove one carrier out of business, such a scenario would be preferable to the never-ending race to the bottom currently underway.


Right now, each union usually has to flex its muscle alone, as the flight attendants did this month, threatening to strike United and US Airways if the airlines used the courts to renege on their labor contracts. Unless unions see their goal as establishing and fighting for an industry standard, the workers are doomed to be helpless victims of the airline crisis.


Consumers are eagerly lapping up the low fares in the skies, oblivious to the fact that they are helping undercut the American middle-class dream. In effect, we are putting our short-term pocketbook needs (low fares) ahead of our longer-term interests -- decent-paying jobs and benefits. It would be far wiser to pay more for a service in return for a society that values jobs that support families and rewards work.


Jonathan Tasini is a labor strategist and writer in New York.
 
...and people will always look for the less expensive airfare...

(I'm sure it's been said before)

why not a standardized minimum charge for each seat...just to throw out a number; say cost of the trip (per seat) plus 35%...something to cover executive salary, all the variables, and a decent profit...

let airlines decide if they want to charge cost plus 40% or 50% or 100%...if they decide to do that and people want to pay it, then by golly they're gonna make a killing...

We'll still go after the less expensive airfare...but it will be $220 instead of $85...

Can't afford it? Walk, drive, or try amtrak...

JMHO

-mini
 
After flying on Spirit airlines (DTW to LGA) due to the low cost, I will gladly pay $100 more from now on if I don't have to listen to all the crying of fatherless babies and smell the "smells" of many of the passengers who can afford nothing more.

Man, those were some BAD two flights and I fly often for pleasure.

Whew!

note: Yes, generalizations were made, but mostly warranted from what I saw.
 
Middle class dream

I would believe most the pilots at JB and AirTran living very well in the middle classes that is referred to as disappearing.
 
pilotyip said:
I would believe most the pilots at JB and AirTran living very well in the middle classes that is referred to as disappearing.
You're right, the pilots are probably doing fine. The pilots are at the top of the salary scale when it comes to airline employees. But pilots are not the only ones affected by the "wal-martization" of the industry. Mechanics, Customer Service Agents, ramp agents, and hordes of support personnel are impacted when airlines cut pay and benefits. Maybe you should re-read the article if what you took from it was "Poor JetBlue pilots! They don't get a traditional pension!"
 
They don't get a "traditional pension!"

The "traditional pension!" is going the way of horse shoes and sail makers. The only people who can count on a pension will be government employees. And anyone besides a gov't employee who puts all of his eggs in the company pension basket, may be in for a big shock. In my 11 jobs since I left the Navy, I have one pension from a school district I once worked for, $3.27 per month.

 
minitour said:
...and people will always look for the less expensive airfare...

(I'm sure it's been said before)

why not a standardized minimum charge for each seat...just to throw out a number; say cost of the trip (per seat) plus 35%...something to cover executive salary, all the variables, and a decent profit...

let airlines decide if they want to charge cost plus 40% or 50% or 100%...if they decide to do that and people want to pay it, then by golly they're gonna make a killing...

We'll still go after the less expensive airfare...but it will be $220 instead of $85...

Can't afford it? Walk, drive, or try amtrak...

JMHO

-mini

Uh, what country are you from?

Capitalism, Competition and good 'ol Supply & Demand are the factors around these parts.
 
ohiopilot said:
After flying on Spirit airlines (DTW to LGA) due to the low cost, I will gladly pay $100 more from now on if I don't have to listen to all the crying of fatherless babies and smell the "smells" of many of the passengers who can afford nothing more.

Man, those were some BAD two flights and I fly often for pleasure.

Whew!

note: Yes, generalizations were made, but mostly warranted from what I saw.
No generalizations needed to know that NK aircraft tend to stink. Please help us out and send your comments to Dr. Jacob Schorr, CEO. I'm embarrased about the interiors of most of our aircraft, but he doesn't listen to me. Hopefully, we will manage to keep the Airbii a little more clean.

In case that first paragraph is misconstrued, I didn't say that our passengers stink, I said our aircraft stink. And I'll say that they stink because the company apparently doesn't feel the need to spend any dollars cleaning the cabins. We used to clean the seat covers every so often, but I don't think we ever clean them now.

We've got a good group of pilots, and we all feel good to have a job, but I can't gloss over the fact that we don't run a first class amenity airline.

enigma
 
"I would believe most the pilots at JB and AirTran living very well in the middle classes that is referred to as disappearing"

Perhaps now, however play it out to what appears to be the conclusion. In 10 years time, perhaps a bit more the same may not be said. How long before SWA changes lists from spunky LCC to legacy carrier because of its graying workforce and being undercut by some new darling(Virgin America?)
 
We shouldn't be living in the middle class. We should be living in the UPPER class. We are frickin pilots. Expensive educations and EXTREME responsibilities. You guys know it just as well as I do that we deserve more.

Enigma,

I agree you do have a great group of pilots over there and I hang out at the bar with a few of them regularly. Whats up with the new Airbus's? They look real nice. Same deal as Jet Blue or are your investors covering it? Any room for the EMB 170/190? A lot of the old Captains (sorry guys) are looking to move up and out of the 1900, any hiring I can relay to these guys? Thanks.
 
Russ said:
How long before SWA changes lists from spunky LCC to legacy carrier because of its graying workforce and being undercut by some new darling(Virgin America?)
Hasn't southwest been around 30+ years? I mean its not a 'legacy' by any means but its not like they just popped up overnight a few years ago.



~wheelsup
 
Middle Class a good target

"We are frickin pilots". Russian kind of sums it up. You can not make a silk purse out of a pig’s ear. Middle class is a great target. Pilots are skilled equipment operators, interchangeable in our skill sets. With a little training any one of us could do each other’s jobs. Job requires Comm/MEL/Inst.; anyone with those certificates is eligible for the job. Income established by length of time with a company, when you go to the next job, you go to the bottom of list and starting pay all over again. Pilots are unlike knowledge workers who have unique skills that have a marketable differentiation.
 
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SPBRIAN said:
Pittsburgh Tribune Review: Up in the air & losing ground

BYLINE: Jonathan Tasini

Wal-Mart has drawn a lot of attention for its low wages, measly benefits and relentlessly anti-union posture.
.
.
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Blah, blah, blah
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Jonathan Tasini is a labor strategist and writer in New York.
Gee, who would have thought from reading this diatribe that Tasini is a "labor strategist." :)



As JetPilot500 said, supply and demand is how we do it here.

By the way, if a Wal-Mart employee doesn't like his (her) wages / benefits / work environment, why not get a different job? If he can't, isn't that a consequence of the educational, training, and lifestyle choices he's made in his life? Is it Wal-Mart's problem? Yes, I know about the exceptional cases (disabled, abused, etc), but aren't these just the outliers?

 
WalMart has become an American icon and you're right, it's a typical example of capitalism run amok. It exploits thousands of its employees, puts hundreds of small business people out of business, forces the transfer of American jobs to China, takes property from its long-term owners by coercing politicians and in general lowers the standard of living wherever it goes. However, it does an excellent job of making all the Daltons billionaires.

Now if we could just make all the airlines like WalMart, then you could have the privilege of flying for minimum wage. If you don't like it, then you can just quit and get a job somewhere else. It's easy to preach the virtues of unbridled capitalism when you personally don't suffer the effects.
 
I wish everybody would quit flying cheap and buying cheap. They are destroying the American way of life.

I guess I will join in and add that it is every one's fault that flies cheaply and buys at WalMart. If you would pay more for everything, I could earn a better living without having to be creative about how to deliver more value to you to get paid more. I want to keep doing what I have always done and get paid more for it, and I above all others deserve it.

By the way, I am willing to use my vote to hire those that would use force to make you pay those higher prices for things, so watch out. We need to return to the old way. We need to only buy American, and we need people working in factories again. We need a middle class that is all but dead. And we need a government that is willing to intervene and force us to do these things.
 
"I wish everybody would quit flying cheap and buying cheap. They are destroying the American way of life."

Where's my stuff? Everybody else has stuff. I want stuff!
 
"Wealth of Nations", Adam Smith pretty well summed it up back in 1790
 
So get this.....

WalMart actually pays people to sit and look at every reference to Wal Mart on the internet to look for employees using the name for their personal gain...... so I propose that we all go to every bulletin board that we can find on the web and post references to WM just to piss them off... maybe even post links to other BBs with the words Wal Mart in the post.... kinda like putting a blond in a silo and telling her to find a corner to pee in!!


So, for the record...
WAL MART WAL MART WAL MART WAL MART WAL MART


Take that you Hitler wannabes!!!
 
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"use force to make you pay those higher prices for things"

And what else would they use force to make us do????

Supply and demand has worked well for well over 200 years in the good old U S of A. I think I'll use my vote to keep it that way.
 
Here's an idea stolen directly from my years of experience in the IT sector: what if ALPA became a sole-source supplier of contract pilot "talent"? Pilots wouldn't be airline employees, but contractors-- employed by ALPA and contracted out to the carriers. Sounds crazy, but think about it: a single, industry-wide unified seniority list, the end of whipsawing, the end of predatory scope.

It'd never happen, but a guy can dream, can't he?
 

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