Wait out furlough outside of aviation?

[GuppyPuppy]

Check out

http://www.traderjoes.com

Story ran in local paper yesterday about this growing company. Average first year salary is just over $40,000.

Assistant managers make $67,000 and store managers $79,000. In addition, a store manager's average bonus is $35,000/year. Assistant manager's bonus $14,000/year.

I shop there from time to time and it seems like it would be a fun place to work. And, you get to be home every night!

Cheers,

GP

 

[typhoonpilot]

While Trader Joe's is a great store to shop at, I doubt that it would be much fun to work there. Pilot's fly airplanes they don't bag groceries. Waiting out your furlough at a non-flying job could well be the end of your flying career as there isn't a guarantee that United or whoever will call you back. Once you become non-current it is much harder to find a job.

It appears that you have started flying again, I'd say stick with that and maybe look for better jobs thinking that United will never call you back.

You tend to have a leg up the second time you try to move up in your career. This is what I did last time.

1991 Furloughed
Unemployed one year
1992 Corporate Bandit Captain
1993 Non-Sched DC-9 F.O.
1994 DC-9 Captain
1995-98 MD-80 Captain
1999 MD-90 Captain
1999 Big mistake in going back to Useless Airways
2002 Furloughed

Starting over yet again, it's even easier the third time.
Furloughed two months.
2003 B777 F.O.

Typhoonpilot

P.S. If you do take the Trader Joe's job will you send me some of their stuff ?, it's hard to get over here in the Middle east

 

[b757driver]

Typhoon

Not necessarily so, typhoon.

I know plenty of horror stories the other way and I'm also living proof.
I have done everything I can but in over a year, I have not been able to get even an interview with ANY outfit! Some of us have NO choice. It's not us that have given up on aviation, it's aviation that has given up on us. It does not take a rocket scientist to figure that a pilot job here in the US is about as unstable a career you can get and not very well paid either. A lot of us do not have the luxury/luck call it what you will that you had. So, for those in this situation, it matters not whther you have been flying or not - don't you think the recruiters know what it's like out there?

I believe at the last count there are more than 11,000 qualified and type rated guys/gals out of work ie. not flying at all. That is more than the pilot population of several EU countries combined and is the worse on record for US aviation. In the face of such unprecendented statistics, nothing surprises me any more.

Third time around? Try 5th lay off (not furlough) in 12 years and see what that does to your "professional" career. And I'm no wannabe with three ICAO licenses and a string of type ratings with experience to go along with each. Must admit a year ago, I thought like you, too, would be much easier with a WIA sponsored new type rating, more networking opportunities, a solid 121 and international background etc etc. Did any of that make a difference? Hell, no, I'm still looking and fast running out of ideas. The norm is not to get any feedback whatsoever and if you try, you automatically go into the circular file!!! Easy? Who are you kidding, with due respect?

I think you have to see it from the individual's perspective. We all have different aspirations; for some they have the Midas touch and always land on their feet; for others it's the opposite - no matter what they do, it's always tougher. So, it really depends on your own, individual circumstances. You cannot generalize. What you say is nice in theory, but in cold reality does not always work. From someone that knows only too well....

 

[Dieterly]

it's hard to get over here in the Middle east

I thought "Carrefour" had everything... The one in Dubai "City Centre" makes a super walmart look like a frigginn 7-11!!!

 

[typhoonpilot]

Carrefour is a trashy French super grocery with mostly trashy French and Sub-Continent goods. Their produce section is okay though.

Typhoonpilot

 

[metrodriver]

I know of 2 guys with DC8 and 727 left seat time and a former 727 fe who had been furloughed before 9/11 (postal going to fedex) and as such not so current any more when everyone else hit the street (and not eligible for WIA typeratings either). All had given up on aviation and surprisingly all got a flying job in the last few month after former co-workers told them to give their new cp a call. Not everybody values currency. Some like attitude a lot more.
A thing that I have heard a lot when applying for jobs is: we don't want 121 guys, they whine too much, especially when it comes to guys furloughed from the major passenger carriers.

 

[crewa2]

Been out of flying for over 2 years now. I've sent resumes to every company out there over and over. Not even an answer from mesa. This was my 3rd furlough in 5 years. I don't know what is left to do. All that hard work and money down the drain. This career sucks. Time to move on

 

[b757driver]

A thing that I have heard a lot when applying for jobs is: we don't want 121 guys, they whine too much, especially when it comes to guys furloughed from the major passenger carriers.
___________________________________________________
metro driver: what about guys whose 121 experience is only 1/6 of their total experience and they are not from a major airline? What if their airline no longer exists ie. they are laid off through NO fault of their own, not furloughed? Are they, too, being discriminated against/tarred with the same brush.

I guess the next thing will be they will start requiring that you have "no breaks in your work history"! How short-sighted can you get? Do they have any idea of how many pilots are out of work through no fault of their own and how difficult it is to even get an interview - never mind about a job offer? Geez, no wonder this industry is so screwed up!!!

 

[metrodriver]

B757: I've heard those exact words several times during job interviews, especially for 135 freight jobs. An example: we want guys that will fly through weather, can file their own flight plan, don't mind loading and unloading several thousands pounds of freight in bad weather after we call you at 2 am, don't ground an airplane as soon as a light bulb burns out. And those 121 guys walk away as soon as someone else calls (probably true in most cases). Some of those 121 guys can't even fly single pilot! (this has been confirmed by what I saw at a previous employer).
We don't want 121 prima donna's.

on that second part: a lot of regionals won't even look at you if you haven't flown 200-300 hrs in the last 6 month. Comair for example rather hires a 1200 hr c172 flight instructor from sunny Florida than a 5000 hr pilot with good turbine time in all-weather conditions and had the bad luck to have been a flight engineer for less than a year before getting furloughed from that job (and comair is not the only one). Talk about srewed-up standards....

 

[b757driver]

That's EXACTLY my point! It's all screwed up and they ARE making an awful lot of assumptions. I've done 121, the flight instructor gig (twice), gone overseas, done my own type rating, ramped, CSR, loaded mail and bags, got my hands dirty etc. Been there, done that many times. Just cos I don't fly now (not my fault the company screwed up) and 1/6 of my total experience is 121, I'm considered "not good enough". I've never heard such B.S. anywhere else in the world - only here & that's probably why this industry is in the worse shape for some 30 years. Even in third world countries the scene is getting better and it won't be long before we will no longer be a leading aviation country. The writing is already on the wall. Look @ Boeing, lokk@ the top 5 majors, look @ the number of furloughed pilots overall and look @ all those that have lost jobs and will NEVER go back.
And GW tells us the economy is turning around. Where might that be? Give me a sign, I don't see any real sign least not in the airline business. Why is nobody buying airline stocks? I could go on but I think you know the picture well enough....

 

[furloughita]

I highly do not recommend a detour from aviation. I do sympathize with your situation; I was out for 2 years since 10/01 and finally got on with a regional a few months ago.

For a year I worked for a police dept, and then for Signature Flight Support to get to know the NetJets and FlightOptions guys. I applied everywhere, including customs and flight instructing jobs and heard nada-nothing-zilch. I learned this: resumes in the mail don't do any good. Face to face makes a world of difference. I started to get interest from companies when I walked in with the blue suit and a resume (yeah, I felt stupid and wondered if it was even an unwelcome thing to do), but that's when companies took interest. I even got some tours of some air ambulance places. Wouldn't you know, this was when I got the regional call.

When you leave aviation, you forget stuff realllyyy fast. The stuff you would need to study for an interview seems endless after being out. The industry changes, and if you take a break, it's just more to adjust to when you get back. Not only that, but a furlough initially brings a welcome break--yeah, home every night! I can try other careers! I can have a life!! But I seriously began to miss the flying, the views, the challenge, and the respect that I hadn't really thought about before. You have no idea that you appreciate a little respect until you work customer service somewhere and then you'll see--the same ones calling you sir/ma'am when you're in the uniform are amazingly condescending when you're behind a desk. My coworkers didn't speak aviation. I made more money, but I also seemed to be at work a lot more often than I ever was when I flew. Come home, eat dinner, watch a show, go to bed, do it all over again all week. I felt like I was wasting every day and watching the clock.

If you love what you do enough to want it back someday, don't leave. I think you might need the person to person contact. Maybe Air Inc conferences or the silly blue suit. Contact your long-lost military, college, roommate, or flight school buddies to get a letter. Good luck; I know it sucks!

 

[b757driver]

furloughita

That was an excellent post - and food for thought. When one thing does not work, try something different, even though it might sound crass. After trying EVERTHING except the personal/cold calling technique, I have started to do as you suggested and I'm finding it's not that bad, just don't expect too much.
Can you PM please, I need to ask you some personal questions on your situation and how you made it work.
You have responded positively to some of my other posts on these boards and you seem genuinely concerned, have experienced it yourself and offer constructive advice without being condescending. Thank you.

 

[typhoonpilot]

Good post furloughita.

Getting out in the aviation scene is what it takes to get back to flying. Often times it is chance encounters with individuals or being at the right place at the right time. That will not likely happen when working outside of aviation.

The first two jobs I got after the 1991 furlough were a direct result of being " out and about ". The first one was just walking into an FBO in Sacramento ( because I saw a Bandit parked out back ). Low and behold, someone I knew from the commuters was running the Bandit program and offered me a job starting in 4 days. The next job was very similar. I had gone to Reno to help a friend fly an Otter across the country to Maine and we got stuck there waiting for the airplane to come out of maintenance. We happened to see a DC-9 sitting across the field and said, " hey, lets go see what that airplane does, and more impotantly, if they will hire us ". So we drove over and got to chat with the Director of Operations. He didn't need anybody at that time, but six months later he did and hired both of us.

I have a good friend who went to work at an FBO in North Carolina as a ramper after his furlough in 1991. In a very short period of time he was flying their Baron on charter then their King Air and eventually a Beechjet.

Flying jobs are out there, but are often unpublished. So you have to be out there to find them. Go to the FBOs, go directly to company offices and get to know people. Eventually you'll be in the right place at the right time and get an offer.

Typhoonpilot

 

[HEAVY HOG]

B757: I've heard those exact words several times during job interviews, especially for 135 freight jobs. An example: we want guys that will fly through weather, can file their own flight plan, don't mind loading and unloading several thousands pounds of freight in bad weather after we call you at 2 am, don't ground an airplane as soon as a light bulb burns out. And those 121 guys walk away as soon as someone else calls (probably true in most cases). Some of those 121 guys can't even fly single pilot! (this has been confirmed by what I saw at a previous employer).
We don't want 121 prima donna's.

SW3Drvr - Here's another perspective:

I realize that you don't necessarily feel this way, but companies with the above mentioned attitude, take advantage of an oversupply of pilots and drive our industry into an assembly line type of business.

I've been there. Of course it's a 2 way street and pilots who go along with unprofessional and unreasonable practices are equally despicable. Let's face it, 99% will not ground a plane for a light bulb, yet this oversimplified explanation is often used to illustrate a point. What is common though is say....a generator problem, yet it's night VFR. Or.... a gear problem, but the mechanic assures you it really works fine if you just recycle the CB 2x. Or.... how about flying over weight and in a situation to land with only 30 minutes fuel and it's night IFR. Or you have a life and a family and 22 hours on duty with a doctored duty log won't cut it.

The bottom line, none of us makes the rules, the FAA does. If companies are too cheap or inept to follow them (they knew the rules going in), then don't play the game. And further more, they shouldn't villify my professional pilot brothers and sisters who are trying to act as responsible crewmembers.

Until we can get a governing body such as the AMA (for doctors), or the ABA (for lawyers), that can control the supply of us and basic working conditions, I say do what is the right safe and professional thing to do.

While many of you are out of work or furloughed from majors, don't stoop to the chagrin of all of us, and to the benefit of a few crooks tryin to run half ass 135 / 121. It's the only way our industry will retain any of it's professionalism.

Until then, don't work in a sweat shop or on an assembly line. Think outside of the box. Use your college degree (most have them). Wait for the right flying job and do a little part-time flying or CFI in the interim.

At least you will be able to look in the mirror and won't destroy your credibility and personal relationships (the real purpose in life) over a few crooks' failed business plan.

 

[MachPi]

I highly recommend a detour from aviation.

This recommendation, of course, is based on the stipulation that a) you are furloughed from your 'dream job,' and b) you have other interests besides aviation.

If you are still building hours or need to maintain currency to be attractive to another company, and can survive on what a new company will pay you as a new hire, by all means do what you have to do.

If, on the other hand, flying is only one of your top three or five passions, try something else. You might like it.