Vref, Touchdown speed in a turbojet Question

[Fly2Scuba]

Flying the EMB-145 for quite awhile now and it was instilled upon me from a couple people way back when to touchdown at or close to Vref. So ever since, I've been close to it on touchdown and personally get nervous seeing that speed drop off from a high flare. Sometimes though these high flares produce somewhat soft landings at 5-10 knots below Vref upon touching down. Of course an extremely high flare could produce a tail strike. Is it correct to always aim to touchdown at or near Vref for someone in the know? Letting the speed bleed off in an extended flare seems to me to be a recipe for a high sink rate and gear damage if an unexpected gust were experienced. I've seen more and more people try to land it like a 172 even being off IOE for quite awhile. Is this is the same idea for all turbojet aircraft?

 

[MusicMan]

Flying the EMB-145 for quite awhile now and it was instilled upon me from a couple people way back when to touchdown at or close to Vref. So ever since, I've been close to it on touchdown and personally get nervous seeing that speed drop off from a high flare. Sometimes though these high flares produce somewhat soft landings at 5-10 knots below Vref upon touching down. Of course an extremely high flare could produce a tail strike. Is it correct to always aim to touchdown at or near Vref for someone in the know? Letting the speed bleed off in an extended flare seems to me to be a recipe for a high sink rate and gear damage if an unexpected gust were experienced. I've seen more and more people try to land it like a 172 even being off IOE for quite awhile. Is this is the same idea for all turbojet aircraft?

If you try to land the CRJ at Vref, you will struggle to let the mains touch down before the nose wheel. In this aircraft, the Vref speed is predicated on a single engine balked landing, which the aircraft won't do at a slower Vref speed. We often touch down 10-15 knots below.

 

[cwebster2]

i fly the 145 and i cross the threshold at ref. If you are floating forever in a nose high flare, you are flaring too early/high. I fly it right down to the TDZ markers and wait to flare until i can merely arrest the descent and produce touchdown smoothly with minimal or no float. I have no idea what the airspeed is at this point because, like you should be, my eyes have been outside the airplane for quite some time now.

If you flare to high, i find its best to just maintain your attitude and give it a little power for a sec to keep the sink rate from increasing. If you try to arrest the sink rate with the elevator you are just going to smash the mains into the pavement. hard.

 

[rjacobs]

In the 145 you should be touching down at Vref. For every 5 knots over ref you are when you touch down you add somewhere between 10 and 15 percent to your landing distance. If you have gusty winds your ref and app speeds should be increased accordingly. You can fly this plane all the way down final at Vref, ive seen it done as a demo and damn it seemed slow to me.

 

[Mickey]

You should cross the threshold at Vref. Power to idle at 20 feet. You will touch down below Vref. This is a normal landing.

PS. I thought the lawn dart was the Metro?

 

[Papa Woody]

I'm a 300 hr TT regional guy.

What they taught me in new hire class is: wipe off the power, flair, then say "YOU HAVE THE CONTROLS!" so the Captain can salvage what's left of my approach.

 

[mushroom]

I've never flown a RJ, but I can tell you that in the 747 the object is to get it on the ground, get the weight on the wheels (i.e. let the spoilers extend), and get the brakes working so you can get it stopped.

While you may not have the same inertia problems as a plane that can weigh 630,000 lbs at landing, I think the principle is the same.

When I was an F/O, I had check airmen comment in years past that I was 5 knots below ref or whatever when I was touching down. Mainly I was wondering what the guy was doing looking at the airspeed indicator instead of down the runway when we were about 5 feet above the ground, but what do I know...

I think the main object is DON'T be fast. You lose all your performance numbers that way, that's for sure. If the biggest plane you've flown so far is an RJ, you'll find out when you move to a bigger plane how important that is.

 

[blott]

I've got a few thousand hours in a 145. I used the same technique for all runway lengths 4000'-15000'. Previous company policy was using an approach speed of Vref plus wind and gust factor. (1/2 steady state, plus all the gust. ie. if its 10 gusting to 15. take half of 10 (5) plus all the gust, (5) total is 15 added to Vref.) min 10 max was 15 (I think?). so on Vapp is Vref+15 (above situation). On final speed is Vapp down to about 100', then reduce thrust a little (and increase pitch), to slow to Vref as you reach 50', while maintaining current descent path. Then slowly bring thrust to idle. Should be able to touch down at or just below Vref at your aim point.(usually the 1000'ers).

Now if it's real nasty out, sometimes you need to keep a little extra speed, just fly it on in that situation.

At or below Vref.

Try not to be one of those guys that holds 20 extra knots, and then holds it off trying to get a smooth landing-then touching down 5000' down the runway. I can't tell you how many times i've been sitting there counting off the 1000' signs while floating down the runway-1, 2, 3, 4, 5...and....touchdown. Just fly it on in that case.

B

 

[DrProc]

I think the main object is DON'T be fast. You lose all your performance numbers that way, that's for sure. If the biggest plane you've flown so far is an RJ, you'll find out when you move to a bigger plane how important that is.

Good point, in the DC-8 it was said that 1 kt fast equaled an additional 180 feet of runway needed. So 10 kts fast would require 1800 more feet of runway, which can get dicey on a short runway.

 

[Oakum_Boy]

That's corect. In the CRJ 90% of people at my company don't reduce power at all until that "50" call which of course is too late. That's what you get with a 1000 hr and sometimes 3000 hr FO who hasn't been trained properly or cares to read anything in the books. Such is life at the regionals.

 

[taters]

That's corect. In the CRJ 90% of people at my company don't reduce power at all until that "50" call which of course is too late. That's what you get with a 1000 hr and sometimes 3000 hr FO who hasn't been trained properly or cares to read anything in the books. Such is life at the regionals.

Chop the power at 100 and if its a 700/900 flare the $hit out of it, you should get a shaker just as the mains hit,,,smooth as silk no float

 

[Oakum_Boy]

That's what I meant, the "100" call, not the 50.

 

[SXMp2c]

If you have gusty winds your ref and app speeds should be increased accordingly.

This is incorrect. VRef is never increased for wind.

 

[Thedude]

When you start flying bigger a/c, you will find out that flaring much more than than keeping the nose off the ground will actually make you sink faster and plant it.

 

[Thedude]

When I was an F/O, I had check airmen comment in years past that I was 5 knots below ref or whatever when I was touching down. Mainly I was wondering what the guy was doing looking at the airspeed indicator instead of down the runway when we were about 5 feet above the ground, but what do I know...

Exaclty. Once you over the airport fence....with the power off.....who cares.

 

[rjacobs]

This is incorrect. VRef is never increased for wind.

At my company it is, the speed cards have a note on them as well as in our books. Thinking from memory its half the crosswind plus the full gust factor added to both Vref and Vapp. Can any other XJT'rs chime in, I may be completely wrong, since I dont have the book or speed cards in front of me, but I am almost 100% positive.

 

[blott]

Vref increased for Ice, or when QRH says-like a flap failure. (probably depends on your ops specs.

B

 

[gcsass]

(1/2 steady state, plus all the gust. ie. if its 10 gusting to 15. take half of 10 (5) plus all the gust, (5) total is 15 added to Vref.) B

Shouldn't you add 10 kts to ref? 5+5 being 10 and all that ......

 

[Singlecoil]

I've flown MD-80's and 737's. Both airplanes like to land at ref to ref-5 in my opinion. The majority of folks who occupy the left seat that I fly with touchdown at Vapp and stomp on the brakes. That "technique" is not one is subscribe to.
I'm currently flying with a guy who insists on keeping his feet on the rudder pedals on my legs. Granted I've only flown one leg so far, but I actually asked him if his feet were on the rudders. He said yes. I said, "Why?" He said, "That's the way I fly."
Welcome to my no-fly list.
I think a call to prostans is next.
Unbelievable.

 

[blott]

yup...10 not 15