Vote NO on ASA PBS

[Tarzan]

Seriously? First of all, our negotiators can play the stall game against management just like they did for 5 years. Think of the millions of dollars the company would lose having to wait until a new contract is signed. Plus, if they try to "screw" us, nobody will vote on a TA, thus prolonging PBS. As bad as they want this, they will figure out a way to quickly get it.

My vote is still NO. I think it will pass, but I hope not.

I hope people vote on the system itself and the language regarding it. Everything else is extra. If we are able to even get the same system, how much will we trade to get it let alone the language that gives us more control than the company? The common thread I hear when people are adamantly against this is that they think ALPA can do anything. The truth is that ALPA can only accomplish as much as the company is willing to agree to.

I'd rather have something right now that will give Inc a reason to put more flying here rather than take it away because the pilot group is opposed to working with the company.

 

[ILS8L]

I hope people vote on the system itself and the language regarding it. Everything else is extra. If we are able to even get the same system, how much will we trade to get it let alone the language that gives us more control than the company? The common thread I hear when people are adamantly against this is that they think ALPA can do anything. The truth is that ALPA can only accomplish as much as the company is willing to agree to.

I'd rather have something right now that will give Inc a reason to put more flying here rather than take it away because the pilot group is opposed to working with the company.

+1 I think you are absolutely correct. I am voting FOR PBS. I hope for our future that this passes.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Well said and very much my point. The man never throws ALPA a bone of compliment, just the criticism. While much criticism is deserved, there should be a "but" in there somewhere.

His dissent is invaluable and sorely needed, but let's give some credit to ALPA or unions in general where credit is due.

We can be "Fair and balanced" like FOX NEWS or we can actually be fair and balanced.

On another thread, I told one of the ALPA cheerleaders that I thought the new incoming MEC here at ASA was the best I've seen in 16 years...How's that for a bone. I will give the outgoing MEC credit for finally coming around to reality.

I sincerely think the new MEC will be much more pragmatic than what I have seen from ALPA in the past. I'm looking forward to working with them. We need to acknowledge reality and deal with reality.....Not what we wish would happen...

You've heard me say it before. ALPA has two choices regarding this competition within a brand for flying.

1. Change the game and really enact "brand scope" and/or single lists within a brand.

or

2. We need to compete for new flying and to keep what we have.

Regarding your cable news analogy...Just think of me as Fox, sweptback as CNN, and Rez O. Lewshun as MSNBC....

I just report....you decide...

 

[JoeMerchant]

I have a sincere question for you. Do you really think that it doesn’t matter that we will be more expensive than Skywest? Do you really think that all business sense will just fly out the window and they will lose money because we will “play ball”? They have already demonstrated that is not the case with the 900 thing a few years ago. Just put yourself in Inc’s shoes. Would you rather make a little money by giving ASA work or make more money by giving it to Skywest. That’s as simple as it can get. This is business.

You mentioned job security. There is a saying that goes “if you can’t beat them, join them”. That’s our only hope at job security. We can’t get cheaper then them, it’s one of the drawbacks of being a senior airline. So our only hope is a merger and without the leverage of PBS if it comes to a merger it will not be favorable for us. Just look at history and what has happened to other airlines in our position.

aircombat, I am one the biggest proponents of a single list...I think it should be a priority. However you aren't going to get for PBS....It is going to cost a lot more than that, and I don't believe most pilots are willing to give up what it would cost. The 3 regionals that have negotiated single lists, gave up quite a bit to get the list.

1. Eagle negotiated the infamous 16 year contract to combine Wings West, Executive, Simmons, and Flagship.

2. Mesa negotiated far below industry standard pay and workrules to combine Freedom with Mesa.

3. Republic/CHQ did the best, but much of their contract is below ours, especially FO pay.

PBS is really more of a bargaining chip for them in the next contract than it is for us because of the concept of "industry standard". They will claim to the NMB that everyone else has PBS and it is the standard. We are already at the top of the heap, and don't have much leverage at this time.

Regarding your question for me, I don't think this will make us cheaper than Skywest. Jerry doesn't WANT to transfer assets and shrink ASA...but I believe he will if we force his hand. There are costs associated with transferring assets and shrinking ASA...That cost has to be factored into the equation.

I believe we can become like the Southwest union, or we can fight like CMR ALPA did during their stike...Which tactic has proven more beneficial?

 

[JoeMerchant]

How many times has a work group voted no on a TA and the second time around ended up with something worse.

Off the top of my head, I can think of two times this happened. The APA/American TA and PSA TA in 2001....Look those up....

In both cases, the first TA was better than final offer/contract.

 

[www.]

I did....do....will....especially when comparing ASA to Peanuckle! At least the vast majority of our pilots speak English.....

9e is a sub-standard operation in the air and on the ground. As soon as Mesa finishes its death spiral into a smoking hole, 9e will be the dregs of the industry.

And in 1....2....3...!

 

[buscap]

Regarding your cable news analogy...Just think of me as Fox, sweptback as CNN, and Rez O. Lewshun as MSNBC....

I just report....you decide...

good one

 

[atlcrjdriver]

Seriously? First of all, our negotiators can play the stall game against management just like they did for 5 years. Think of the millions of dollars the company would lose having to wait until a new contract is signed. Plus, if they try to "screw" us, nobody will vote on a TA, thus prolonging PBS. As bad as they want this, they will figure out a way to quickly get it.

My vote is still NO. I think it will pass, but I hope not.

Forgive me if you already answered this question but I wasn't going to scan 6 pgs to find it.

You forget that the negotiations process is about give and take. Some believe that if we vote down this TA that the company will buckle and give in to all of our req. to get PBS on property. How many proposals do you believe the PWG turned down from the company b4 they negotiated one they believed would be good for our corp? After all these people will be using this system as well. These are the people WE voted in the rep us at the table.

My question is two fold:
Exactly what parts of the TA are you voting no to and what are you willing to give up to get it?

What I have said earlier still holds true that while this TA isn't perfect (I haven't seen one that is yet) it is a big step up for the QOL in our pilot corp. for those senior and junior as it gives you more ctrl over your life from month to month.

Vote it in now and work with to make improvements during open book rather than wait and get it in during negotiations and be stuck for 5+ years. Don't forget that w/ this TA comes an extension of current contract for 1 year yet negotiations start on time. W/o this TA our contract comes up this year and this isn't a good time to be negotiating anything that includes compensation.

 

[ASA_Aviator]

Regarding your cable news analogy...Just think of me as Fox, sweptback as CNN, and Rez O. Lewshun as MSNBC....

I just report....you decide...

Wow. Joe, I normally like what you have to say, but comparing yourself to a propagandizing bunch of half-truth tellers is below you, and not helping your cause!

 

[buscap]

Personally I think anyone who is considering voting NO is doing so for some very good and strongly felt reasons.

They are mostly tired of being stuck in the non-upgrade or downgrade cycle, or maybe bitter over the inequities in the reserve and seniority system in general. They see a senior heavy pilot group which has no concern for the junior pilots. 'Junior pilot' once meant someone with less than two years with the company. That is no longer the case due to the perfeact storm of the economy and 65.

These folks understandably are frustrated over unfulfilled career and quality of lfe expectations. I could now go into a long tirade about the dues I've paid and how they should blah blah blah.

But to tell you the truth, I can't blame any for feeling the way they do.

The only thing I can say to them is, in my opinion, they are overestimating the hand we have to play. While we don't have just a pair of twos, we most definitely do not have the royal flush many seem to smell in the cards.

And while things at the bottom of the list do suck, and please forgive the old man in me here, they certainly could suck more. Call your buddies at Comair to talk about that one. Or maybe call some friends at Mesa to find out how they feel about their future.

The point is, do not overestimate our position on this vote. We do have pilots on the street.

 

[N6069L]

Fellow former ASA pilots. You will be voting in a concession. I have personal PBS experience. I hope you are good friends with scheduling, you will need all the favors you can get.

 

[OCP]

Fellow former ASA pilots. You will be voting in a concession. I have personal PBS experience. I hope you are good friends with scheduling, you will need all the favors you can get.

You only know a system that you and your union had no say in how it was run. That is not the system that is being proposed at ASA.

 

[OCP]

Personally I think anyone who is considering voting NO is doing so for some very good and strongly felt reasons.

They are mostly tired of being stuck in the non-upgrade or downgrade cycle, or maybe bitter over the inequities in the reserve and seniority system in general. They see a senior heavy pilot group which has no concern for the junior pilots. 'Junior pilot' once meant someone with less than two years with the company. That is no longer the case due to the perfeact storm of the economy and 65.

I am pretty much in this position. Junior CA on the 200. I've been 20 away from the bottom line since Sept of this year. Reserve can really suck! But I see nothing but either no change or much better improvements for me in this LOA. So it will be a yes for me.

 

[Tarzan]

I hear through the grapevine that the new reserve coverage is expected to be around 10% instead of the current 25%. Anyone know about this?

 

[Oakum_Boy]

Whenever the union (people you're paying good money) is pushing a concessionary piece of language, BEWARE. I understand they put a lot of time into it, and somehow think of it as their "baby", but WTF. I didn't ask for it, and I don't want it. If I did, I would have asked.

Nice how the company is 100% sure it's gonna pass not having to one bit of the dirty work, well that's just icing on the cake. It cannot be a good thing, regardless of all the bells and whistles.

 

[79%N1]

It cannot be a good thing, regardless of all the bells and whistles.

Why?

Instead of all the hyperbole and conjecture, could someone please offer facts and/or for instances?

 

[lonestarpilot20]

I was originally against PBS, if for no other reason maximizing time off for vacation under the current system. After looking over the LOA and listening in during the presentation in the crew lounge I am voting yes. Mostly for the same reasons as previously posted. As in everything in life, there is a trade-off. I like being able to convert a week of vacation into 17 days off, even if it costs me some money. Having said that I am willing to give part of that up to get the improvements in IOT and MOT with the ability to break trips up. After the learning curve peaks, I think the pilot-to-pilot trade board is going to be very active as people work the system swapping/picking up parts of trips.

I haven't really seen anything concrete from the no voters that would convince me to vote no. Is any system perfect? No, but I am comfortable with the language of the LOA.

 

[Poppa Hodax]

Why I Am Voting No

Instead of all the hyperbole and conjecture, could someone please offer facts and/or for instances?

Having read the LOA a number of times, asked questions of the reps in the lounge, and attended a road show, I am voting no. Generally speaking, I do not feel the Union and Company have made an adequately compelling case for trading one seniority based bidding system for a bidding system that further favors the senior at the expense of the junior. They did a passable job of demonstrating what the software will do, but did not present a convincing argument about why we should accept it. Specifically, the following items have contributed significantly to my decision:

• No language to prevent line holders from working more than four days in a row. As a matter of record, one of the union reps I talked to in the lounge commented that working five or six days in a row was actually probable for mid seniority and junior line holders. Under the current system, line holders will only work a maximum of four days in a row, excepting integration. There is no such guarantee under the new system.
• No minimum trip credit value (trip rig) language. One union rep said the Company flat out refused to budge on minimum trip credit values. In my opinion, a minimum value for a trip is sine qua non to a preferential bidding system. With such language, pilots would be assured of efficient trip construction, resulting in either more days off or a higher paycheck. Without this language, mid grade and junior pilots can expect five or six days of work in a row with minimum days off in a month, along with a paycheck near guarantee.
• The Vacation Issue. The Union reps used a profligate excess of words detailing how the vacation system could be better under PBS. Underneath the verbiage is the fact that pilots are still bidding on days off for vacation, with no language to prevent a trip on either side of a vacation. The current system guarantees a drop of conflicting trips. I prefer the iron clad language of the current system.
• The shameful treatment of Reserves. I feel that reserves got tossed some "improvements" that appear as almost an afterthought to garner their votes. Much more should have been done. There has been much rhetoric implying that we should accept this LOA now, and work out the reserve issues in negotiation. The last negotiation took over five years. The Reserves deserve better than the sentiment of "line holders get theirs now, and Reserves will get theirs in half a decade".

Again, I will admit the sentiment petty, but the hubris displayed by the Union and the Company in their contemptible smugness regarding the passage of PBS irks me. I find their "Trust me...I know what is better for you" attitude condescending.
The Union and the Company have offered views of the failure of PBS passage ranging from the dramatic to the passive. I have heard that if we don't accept PBS then Delta will drop ASA, which will soon cease to exist as a company. I have heard that PBS is absolutely essential to ensure growth. I have heard that the United flying is dependent on the passage of PBS. These arguments contained much melodrama and passion, but no facts. If true, then the Union failed to demonstrate or document these alleged imperatives.
I do not subscribe to such pessimistic views. Given that the economy is showing signs of revival and that Age 65 will soon trigger significant retirements bordering on massive exodus, the negotiating landscape could look much, much different in three to five years. Pilots could conceivably be in a much, much stronger bargaining position as ASA struggles to keep pilots as mainline carriers begin hiring in earnest.
In conclusion, I don't feel that the proposed LOA offers a significant improvement over the current system. Honestly, I feel that the LOA is bad for over half the pilots (the bottom half of the line holders and all of the Reserves). I also think that there must be a minimum trip credit to ensure the construction of pairings that will ensure PBS generates schedules that are effecient for the Company and enhance the quality of life for the pilots. Further, I do not feel that there is a significant peril with voting down PBS, and despite all the dinning to the contrary, the situation in three to five years might actually be more favorable for negotiation.
Finally, and at the risk into straying into the aforementioned hyperbole, I would like to address the sentiment that PBS is inevitable. I don't believe in inevitable, and accepting some fate because there appears no way to avoid it is dangerously conformist groupthink, and un-American. What if George Washington had accepted the inevitable after the loss of New York? What if the USA had accepted the inevitable of the ruin of Pearl Harbor? What if Rosa Parks accepted the inevitable? Vote your intellect; vote your conscience; vote your emotion; but don't vote because you lack courage in your convictions and go along with the group. Vote yes or no because you actually believe it is the right thing to do.

 

[buscap]

Poppa!!

I am voting yes, but...

Best put NO vote synopsis I've read. I don't agree with enough of what you said to change my mind, but very well put!!

 

[79%N1]

Having read the LOA a number of times, asked questions of the reps in the lounge, and attended a road show, I am voting no. Generally speaking, I do not feel the Union and Company have made an adequately compelling case for trading one seniority based bidding system for a bidding system that further favors the senior at the expense of the junior. They did a passable job of demonstrating what the software will do, but did not present a convincing argument about why we should accept it. Specifically, the following items have contributed significantly to my decision:

• No language to prevent line holders from working more than four days in a row. As a matter of record, one of the union reps I talked to in the lounge commented that working five or six days in a row was actually probable for mid seniority and junior line holders. Under the current system, line holders will only work a maximum of four days in a row, excepting integration. There is no such guarantee under the new system.
• No minimum trip credit value (trip rig) language. One union rep said the Company flat out refused to budge on minimum trip credit values. In my opinion, a minimum value for a trip is sine qua non to a preferential bidding system. With such language, pilots would be assured of efficient trip construction, resulting in either more days off or a higher paycheck. Without this language, mid grade and junior pilots can expect five or six days of work in a row with minimum days off in a month, along with a paycheck near guarantee.
• The Vacation Issue. The Union reps used a profligate excess of words detailing how the vacation system could be better under PBS. Underneath the verbiage is the fact that pilots are still bidding on days off for vacation, with no language to prevent a trip on either side of a vacation. The current system guarantees a drop of conflicting trips. I prefer the iron clad language of the current system.
• The shameful treatment of Reserves. I feel that reserves got tossed some "improvements" that appear as almost an afterthought to garner their votes. Much more should have been done. There has been much rhetoric implying that we should accept this LOA now, and work out the reserve issues in negotiation. The last negotiation took over five years. The Reserves deserve better than the sentiment of "line holders get theirs now, and Reserves will get theirs in half a decade".

Again, I will admit the sentiment petty, but the hubris displayed by the Union and the Company in their contemptible smugness regarding the passage of PBS irks me. I find their "Trust me...I know what is better for you" attitude condescending.
The Union and the Company have offered views of the failure of PBS passage ranging from the dramatic to the passive. I have heard that if we don't accept PBS then Delta will drop ASA, which will soon cease to exist as a company. I have heard that PBS is absolutely essential to ensure growth. I have heard that the United flying is dependent on the passage of PBS. These arguments contained much melodrama and passion, but no facts. If true, then the Union failed to demonstrate or document these alleged imperatives.
I do not subscribe to such pessimistic views. Given that the economy is showing signs of revival and that Age 65 will soon trigger significant retirements bordering on massive exodus, the negotiating landscape could look much, much different in three to five years. Pilots could conceivably be in a much, much stronger bargaining position as ASA struggles to keep pilots as mainline carriers begin hiring in earnest.
In conclusion, I don't feel that the proposed LOA offers a significant improvement over the current system. Honestly, I feel that the LOA is bad for over half the pilots (the bottom half of the line holders and all of the Reserves). I also think that there must be a minimum trip credit to ensure the construction of pairings that will ensure PBS generates schedules that are effecient for the Company and enhance the quality of life for the pilots. Further, I do not feel that there is a significant peril with voting down PBS, and despite all the dinning to the contrary, the situation in three to five years might actually be more favorable for negotiation.
Finally, and at the risk into straying into the aforementioned hyperbole, I would like to address the sentiment that PBS is inevitable. I don't believe in inevitable, and accepting some fate because there appears no way to avoid it is dangerously conformist groupthink, and un-American. What if George Washington had accepted the inevitable after the loss of New York? What if the USA had accepted the inevitable of the ruin of Pearl Harbor? What if Rosa Parks accepted the inevitable? Vote your intellect; vote your conscience; vote your emotion; but don't vote because you lack courage in your convictions and go along with the group. Vote yes or no because you actually believe it is the right thing to do.

Now that was an answer! (And Papa, stop doing that. This is FI)
But, it was good to see an intelligent, well-thought out response to an issue rather than the non-sensical emotional spouting of nonsense. Thanks for taking the time to air your views. I agree with some, and disagree with others.....but at least it wasn't the same old 'I'm mad about some other issue that has nothing to do with this, so I vote no!'