Vitriol and Hate

[UALjan15]

Turtle,

Believe it or not, we are not at "hatred" yet.....I have a few words that do describle how most west guys feel about the east group: shocked, disbelief, dissappointed, frustrated, belittled, disrespected.

You are correct in pinpointing the timing of our outcry at the issuance of the Nicolau award. Our initial response was not elation by any means...more like "whew....thank God that Nicolau saw through the East's blatant attempt at a land grab and granted something reasonable." We expected an east response of something like: "Well, we shot for the moon and missed, but at least we all got relative seniority and everyone keeps their seats & fleets." Instead we got the past 6 months of destructive tactics by our east brethren.

I don't want to drone on forever in response to blatant flamebait, but it all boils down to this: There is a line between trying to do best by your pilot group and trying to completely squash and subordinate a brother pilot group. The east does not respect this line, or perhaps doesn't even see a line at all. So yes, in that respect, we have started to take personal offense to that attitude.

You are all so fond of the DOH/DOS with fences solution that you claim protects everyone, right? If we lived in a static world, you all might be right. But no one can say for certain what will become of any of our domiciles. The company can shrink some and grow others to match their tastes, and we are just pawns along for the ride--just ask any former PSA guy! At least with Nicolau, if pilots are forced out from west to east or vice versa, at least they can bid as equals with the other side. The east plan would staple most of our group, forcing most of our Captains and all of our F/Os to slot in behind your furloughee returns. If that sounds fair to you, please see the above comment about squashing and subordinating another pilot group.

 

[Turtle21]

You are one of the more rare, having a moderte tone.

The AAA pilots know the line and respect it. Prater does not and I really feel sorry for the old chap. He has made his bed, having decided that he is imotent to rule what is "fair and equitable" since it is not defined by ALPA. To his dismay the AAA pilots don't agree with his interpritation and have the lawful means to oppose his coarse of action.

It is unfortunate that ALPA chose to collect dues but set up a scheme of merger policy that is little better than effectively tying two cats together by the tail to let them sort out their differences. Of course ALPA knew how important it was for the arbitraitor to hit both cats so they would fight with each other.

Unfortunately for Prater, some punk came along and hit one of the cats with a stick and now that cat is after the first punk who tied them together. To Prater's dismay, the two cats aren't fighting each other, and Prater's only position now is to beat on the one cat that is attacking him.

It will get much uglier before it gets better.

 

[MK82Man]

Turtle

"AWA hasn’t withheld hiring for AAA pilots. 300-400 USAir pilots have been retiring each year for several years and AAA pilots have been forced to fly nearly 95 hours a month to make up for it for a couple years because Dougweiser hasn’t brought back the furloughs when he should have. "

AWA did in fact stop hiring 3 months prior to the merger to digest what was about to occur and has not hired anyone so that every furloughee (who used to work at the old US Air) who wanted to come back had the opportunity to work at a NEW Company. So furloughees who had no prospect at a twice bankrupt carrier have in fact stopped absorption on the West. But I'm glad we did it. It was the right thing to do. We wanted every furloughee to have the chance to return to work. You cannot seperate the fact that no new hires happened out West, while the folks were recalled out East. Thank goodness that Mr. Doug Parker is able to run an airline where you have the opportunity to fly 95 hours a month and get paid. Again, this is a new company and not YOUR Company anymore. You seem to think the furloughees should have been brought back sooner. From the acceptance rate, it appears many never entended to come back at all. We haven't hired a single guy out West to replace our West Retirees. So if you want to talk Retirees and guys brought back on the bottom of the list, seems East is ahead by 300/400.

"I have no intention of stalling implementation"

I'm glad you will be voicing your opinion on the East and convicing them to get to the bargining table. Will you contact your MEC and tell them to move forward for joint integration?

"No AAA pilot is moving out east to upgrade. All 300 upgrades this year were on East metal. This really seems to be the issue. West pilots have a sense of entitlement to upgrades they didn’t bring, but were supposedly given to them by Nicolau, but are allegedly being denied them by the East."

Every AAA pilot is upgrading on the East side. I think you mistyped here. There is not a single AWA pilot that has upgraded in an East Domicle. Let's see you've had 300 and we have 40 scheduled through next May. I have no sense of entitlement to your upgrades at your East hubs, but what you fail to realize is that your upgrades are coming at our expense. No 190 or 757 upgrades that we negotiated. No new hires, which means no movement, jr boys still on Reserve, still at the bottom of the pole for vacation and bidding, and all the stuff that comes with a list that moves. The only list that is moving is the East list. We are pouring millions of dollars into the East Ops. Great, but you want that and more. We were an equal lot in May of 2005. We were an equal lot when Nic ruled. But now you don't want that deal. You want a better deal. That is what is so frustrating to the West pilots. So at 30 upgrades a month for ya'll in 60 days you will have 60 new captains and 60 new FOs. Guess what, Dave Odell is still the last dude on our list and will be in 60 days. East dudes benefit and West does not. The longer you stall the better for your side. How is that fair?

You failed to answer your 141 Altus upgrade question.

"Whatever results that Nicolau may or may not have dictated I think every pilot will have to evaluate on their own and vote accordingly in whatever issues come up for a vote."

And this is the crux of the issue. You asked Nic to rule, and now you say "I don't like your decision." The time to stand up and be an adult and live by what we agreed to is at hand, and now the East continues to stall. Will we see you a week from Monday at the joint contract talks? My guess is no. Not aligned with stalling so East can benifit at West expense.

 

[UALjan15]

You are one of the more rare, having a moderte tone.

The AAA pilots know the line and respect it. Prater does not and I really feel sorry for the old chap. He has made his bed, having decided that he is imotent to rule what is "fair and equitable" since it is not defined by ALPA. To his dismay the AAA pilots don't agree with his interpritation and have the lawful means to oppose his coarse of action.

It is unfortunate that ALPA chose to collect dues but set up a scheme of merger policy that is little better than effectively tying two cats together by the tail to let them sort out their differences. Of course ALPA knew how important it was for the arbitraitor to hit both cats so they would fight with each other.

Unfortunately for Prater, some punk came along and hit one of the cats with a stick and now that cat is after the first punk who tied them together. To Prater's dismay, the two cats aren't fighting each other, and Prater's only position now is to beat on the one cat that is attacking him.

It will get much uglier before it gets better.

First, I have no idea where you are going with this cat analogy. I know that I have an inherent need to chase the pu$$y, and sometimes that leads me to fighting, but your little story makes about as much sense as a George W speech on "strategery."

Look, man......You are expecting WAY too much out of ALPA! The simple fact is that seniority integrations are extremely difficult, and there is no way to write a perfect set of rules that will work for all mergers/acquisitions. Each integration is different from the one before it and the one after it. I think the current ALPA policy does as good a job as possible at providing a structure for negotiation and mediation.

Why is it that you can't understand why ALPA has to maintain neutral status in this fight? They represent both groups, for Christ's sake! For them to delve into an arbitrator's decision and try to change it opens them up to big-time litigation. I'm sure ALPA didn't envision being put in this jam by the east, and I don't think they're doing a great job of handling it, but they are certainly not the cause of your woes. For that, you need to look to your MEC that set you up for this fall with sky high expectations and and all-or-nothing gamble in arbitration.

 

[UALjan15]

The AAA pilots know the line and respect it.

OK, Turtle....you claim that the AAA pilots know the line and respect it. Yet instead of backing up that assertion (which I'd love to hear), you launch into story about beating cats.

Just for our amusement, why don't you apply your assertion (that the AAA pilots know the line between protecting their pilot group and trampling another) to the scenario that I listed above. Yeah, the one where west side pilots are forced to bid into east domiciles due to company restructuring. I would love to hear ANY of you guys (Weasel, A350, etc..I know you're reading this) defend how a DOH w/fences list would be fair when it places your furloughees above most of our Captains.

The sad thing is that most of you DO believe that such a scenario would be fair. That is why we can't seem to get anywhere negotiating with you. And also why we can't wait for the day when you guys retire off the property.

 

[Wiskey Driver]

First, I have no idea where you are going with this cat analogy. I know that I have an inherent need to chase the pu$$y,

Don't we all UALjan15, don't we all!!!!

WD.

 

[A350]

UAL:

It comes down to the number, doesn't it?

AWA pilots all claim that it is OK that someone hired 10 years after you is now senior to you because, they will never come east. The east pilots, who have been through 3 of these mergers, know different. If this is true, then why are the AWA pilots so afraid of a furloughed dude being senior to a CA at AWA when in fact, none of this "crossing" between domiciles will occur?
The fact that they lost so many years on the list to others, years which can never be recovered. They also lose the availability of widebody slots permanently because their now senior west pilots will take the slots. In many cases, east pilots lose the ability to upgrade at all. The LOS arguement with fences protects everyone. Certainly, there could have been protections from furlough as well. However, we all know the only protection from that is being # 1 on the list.

All this is water under the bridge.....however you asked why.

Now, if you are talking about the company closing domiciles, we have another issue. The only domicile that has closed post merger is an EAST domicile. If the company decided to put flying out west, East pilots would then go out west and be junior forever because of where they are on the Nic list. ODell was hired last...he might have some guys beneath him right now, and he could have been furloughed himself. Noone knows what would have happened without the merger with any certainty. Using what might have happened to shape the career of someone isn't how I want to see it happen.

Look, all this sparring back and forth is very enlightening, and it really does bring home the fact that ALPA is and will always be powerless to protect its membership......hell,they can't protect their members from each other let alone an outside threat. Mergers will always be the most contentious part of the aviation business. I don't expect the AWA pilots to understand. I don't expect them to give a $hit sbout the east pilots. This attitude has come from over 20 years of watching pilots %#$#$ each other over for the almighty whatever. A lot of it occurs under the watchful eye of the almighty ALPA. You live in the house with each other now and if you don't learn to live together, it won't be pretty. Eating a $hit sandwich is part of this business....and the East guys feel they have digested about all they can at this point.

If ALPA falls at AAA, the profession will not fail, the sky will not fall, the company will not fail. The poster who said the destruction of ALPA at AAA will hurt the profession is laughable at best....unless you think the IPA, the APA, the Teamsters, and the SWAPA hurt the industry.

A350

 

[MK82Man]

East is a no show again

Turtle -- well once again the East Coast pilots fail to show for joint negotiations with management. Monday the 29th and we are supposed to meet jointly, all of us, ALPA, Management, West and East. But the East MEC votes 7 to 5 on Thursday the 25th, not to show up. Why? So East can gain at the West coast pilot’s expense. Squander the opportunity for real contract gains, so East pilots can make nickels and dimes more today …. What a real mess. Stall, delay, logjam, barrier, block, “the Embraer division” … it is outright fraud at its finest. East and West are business partners in the merger but only the West feels that way. East US Airways is all about them, screw your fellow pilot, get mine first, leftovers to you, no “brother” in brotherly love. Since no recall attempt is underway out East, everyone out West is losing hope about the rational East coast dudes that must exist … they aren’t standing up to be counted and the moderate's "failure to act" condones what the East MEC is doing. My prediction is that receivership/trusteeship is now very close at hand and the EAST MEC will be replaced by ALPA National very quickly. Another opportunity squandered by US Airways East. Since you don’t want to play ball, we’ll see what ALPA National tells you to do …

 

[PHXFLYR]

All I got to say about our "esteemed colleagues" back east can be summed up in 2 words:

"WHAADA BUNCH !!"


PHXFLYR