Visual Profile

[JD2003]

Hey Guys/Gals...I am new to a jet and have been on the line for about five months now and I have a question for you all.

If you get cleared for a visual (base leg and close in to the marker) and you are high and not fully configured is it best to continue down the visual slope with thrust at idle until you reach final flap retraction speed (slowly) or is it better to raise the nose and lose speed (quickly) to get the final segment of flaps in?

In the first scenario you run the risk of not getting configured by the prescribed altitude (500'AGL for visuals) and in the second scenario you run the risk of getting configured but then being even higher on the slope.

With speed assignments given to us by ATC, it is not always possible to get fully configured early due to limitations so my question is when you are handed a scenario such as this one what is the best/most safe course of action?

Thanks!

Newbie

 

[PCL_128]

There really isn't a right or wrong answer, but I've always thought it to be sloppy technique to pitch up to get slowed down to configure. In the CRJ you can get configured on the slope relatively easily, even if just a few miles from the runway. I'm not sure how the ERJ is, but it can't be that much harder. It really comes down to your comfort level. Since you're new to the plane it might be best to pitch up to slow down quicker. As you gain more experience in the plane you should become more comfortable in configuring while on slope.

 

[Nindiri]

I would raise the nose and configure. It will come down a lot quicker with the flaps down and you should have no problem.

 

[five-alive]

If you are only a little high, use #1. If you are very high and desperate, pitch up and slow down to put in full flaps....you would not believe how quickly you can drop from the sky, CRJ or ERJ.

 

[JustShy]

I guess you're all trained to think flaps first, but thinking outside the box:

And the reason for not dropping the gear first is....

???

 

[JD2003]

Hey...thanks for all the responses. I would agree that there is no right or wrong answer and I hate gray areas like this in my flying.

I had been perfectly comfortable thinking slope first with thrust idle and the speed will bleed back to final flap speed in plenty of time to be within stabilized approach criteria. This has worked for me in the past.

Lately I have flown with some captains that don't like this and want to see me get the nose up to slow down. Some captains would rather see me pitch down with thrust idle and slowly bleed off the speed. I would guess that if you are anywhere outside the marker this gives plenty of time to get last segment of flaps in and N1%'s on target for a stabilized Vref and deck angle.

Very little (almost 0) time is spent on this in training so I really appreciate all who responded and captains who have showed me different way's to skin this cat.

thanks again,

newbie

 

[HowlinMadMurdoc]

All depends on the airplane. In the DoJet, if we get the just-abeam-the-numbers "slam-dunk" visual, short of doing aggressive S-turns or a couple of 360's on final, the way it'll work is to nose-up and slow down, then drop everything on speed.

That method works everytime time. And, with all due respect to PCL_128, it's not a sloppy method, if done properly. I'd rather handle a slam-dunk in this manner than doing S-turns or 360's. Passengers are more likely to wonder if it's the latter method.

Those of us MKE-based are all too familiar with the "yank-and-bank", "slam-dunk" visuals...gotta love MKE ATC sometimes...

HMM

 

[PCL_128]

And, with all due respect to PCL_128, it's not a sloppy method, if done properly. I'd rather handle a slam-dunk in this manner than doing S-turns or 360's. Passengers are more likely to wonder if it's the latter method.

"If done properly" is the key here. Very few captains I've flown with do this properly. They usually pitch up quite a bit, ask for Flaps 20 (which creates a ridiculous pitch moment in the CRJ), and then nose over rather abruptly. Personally, I try to do things smoothly for the pax. I just think keeping it on the slope will provide the smoothest ride for everyone, but it is certainly possible to use the other method and still be smooth. I just haven't seen too many people do it smoothly.

 

[Paul R. Smith]

I guess you're all trained to think flaps first, but thinking outside the box:

And the reason for not dropping the gear first is....

???

Mostly noise I would think...wadd you think?

 

[Truckdriver]

If your high and fast in the ERJ you better pitch up and slow unless it is an XR. Some of the LRJ's just don't slow down very well. If your just high you shoudl be fine, but if your also fast you better pitch up.

 

[SkyWestCRJPilot]

Don't forget the spoilers if you need them.

 

[Mongolikecandy]

If you are in the CRJ, I wouldn't hesitate to grab the spoilers (above 800ft) to start slowing while still on the path. It can be done smoothly enough to not alarm passengers or feel like you are doing something extreme. Just remember to retract them. That last notch can be forgotten and you get the little yellow reminder on short final.

 

[Stby One]

High energy approaches are interesting. There are probably as many theorys about it as there are pilots. Personally i'd say slow down, but sometimes you fly with captains that wants you to do the opposite so then just roll with it. At my homebase in northern Italy we enter downwind at about 10000-12000 feet AGL due to the alps. I've seen guys on visual approaches do 320 knots until turning base, it works if you fly a wide pattern but i personally prefer to slowdown early. I doubt you lose much time and you get more time to think about what you are doing. In a B738 it can be hard to slow down on the glide if you are heavy, not familiar with the EMB though.

I think the best way to deal with a high energy approach is to drop the gear early, sure it can be noisy but i think most pax would prefer that over a go-around.

Visual approaches together with other types of non-precision approaches are less safe and by slowing down you increase your situational awareness.

 

[Medeco]

Mostly noise I would think...wadd you think?

I am always amazed by the large percentage of ASA Capt. who gasp when I call for gear down early, for speed reduction or more common ATC speed restriction wont let me go faster anyway. I was always told and agree that getting your gear down early is smart. If yah have a problem with the gear it sure is better to know early.

And , I am not talking 10 mile final, gear down, more like 1 or 2 outside the marker.

I think that the previous comments pretty much sum up the answer to you question.

Very few things in Aviation have an absolute way for technique.

medeco

 

[JustShy]

I hear 'ya...

The point is, most approaches are vanilla, and things go smoothly. Over and over, it's flaps-gear-flaps-land-exit-clean up. If you need to put the gear down first to help get stabilized, quickly explain the reason, then call for it.

Think outside the box...

 

[Ben Franklin]

you should visit www.expressjetpilots.com or www.calforums.com/coexboard


there are alot of hot sticks on those sites who can tell you everything that you need to know about flying jets.

I fly the E145 and slow to 145 at FL200 and put in gear down and flaps 45 and fly Vref all the way in to 50 feet above touchdown. That way, I am set up and don't need to actually slow to cross that 50' point at Vref. Now THAT's being ahead of the game. My F/O's are constantly impressed and offer to buy my drinks and meals all over the civilized world.

Sincerely,

B. Franklin

 

[248to2.8]

I guess you're all trained to think flaps first, but thinking outside the box:

And the reason for not dropping the gear first is....

???

Every plane I've ever flown, the first flaps setting was higher than the gear speed. That would be why.

If you are going to pitch up, which I agree is sloppy, don't climb, just level off. Once you get more expierience you'll know what kind of glide angle to use so you can just keep truckin down the path.

 

[EMB170Pilot]

Hey Guys/Gals...I am new to a jet and have been on the line for about five months now and I have a question for you all.

If you get cleared for a visual (base leg and close in to the marker) and you are high and not fully configured is it best to continue down the visual slope with thrust at idle until you reach final flap retraction speed (slowly) or is it better to raise the nose and lose speed (quickly) to get the final segment of flaps in?

In the first scenario you run the risk of not getting configured by the prescribed altitude (500'AGL for visuals) and in the second scenario you run the risk of getting configured but then being even higher on the slope.

With speed assignments given to us by ATC, it is not always possible to get fully configured early due to limitations so my question is when you are handed a scenario such as this one what is the best/most safe course of action?

Thanks!

Newbie

My soultion... PLAN AHEAD
Being new also, I expected the visual so I had the airplane slowed down with flaps in so all I had to do is drop the gear and put in the rest of the flaps.

Just plan ahead and you will be fine. Its called LEARNING Happened to me when I started out in Dec

 

[Terry Hunter]

Be the Ball. Send the ball home, Happy.

I am always amazed by the large percentage of ASA Capt. who gasp when I call for gear down early...

The same strange gasps can be heard if you ask for flaps or gear early to help lose 10,000+ feet of altitude. Some people just need to unwind a little bit.

 

[svcta]

Of course you do what you need to do to get slowed down, but I recently saw a good trick for making the flap "8" setting a little less pitch crazy with the CRJ at high (flap) speed: One or two clicks of spoilers as the flaps extend will settle that pitch moment down really nicely, then just ease the spoilers back to zero. Seems to work well. But then, I AM a complete idiot, and I hate me, so nevermind.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

My soultion... PLAN AHEAD
Being new also, I expected the visual so I had the airplane slowed down with flaps in so all I had to do is drop the gear and put in the rest of the flaps.

Just plan ahead and you will be fine. Its called LEARNING Happened to me when I started out in Dec

bump.

 

[tarp]

Landing Gear first - CRJ

Is it my imagination or am I the only person who has gotten "GEAR DISAGREE" when trying the "gear first" option on a CRJ without the reach for the hydraulics panel?

On the older models, those #3 ACMPS (pumps) aren't as frisky as a newer airplane. Supplying hydraulic power for backup rudder, elevators, ailerons and spoilerons is already taxing the system. So now you add nose gear doors, uplocks and a little extension pressure - whoops, sorry you are just out of pressure! GEAR DISAGREE.

Now you can rectify that by reaching up to the panel and moving VERY CAREFULLY the #3B switch from Auto to "ON" and now you have two (2) pumps moving fluid or you can just wait till you have some flaps (FLAPS not equal 0 degrees) and the airplane will turn pump 3B "on" for you in anticipation of the demand to be placed on the airplane. But then some pilots go beserk on a non-standard switch movement in a sterile cockpit environment.

So maybe some of us pitch up and slow down to flap speed first so that all this stuff doesn't happen. Then we don't have to answer the F/A and the folks in the first two rows who are asking what was the problem with the "GEAR". So I can act cool and make a nice profile with the off chance that I just scared the (you know what) out of 5-6 people. Or I can make the airplane balloon for just a second stealing off 20-30kts of excess airspeed.

And spoilers.....they are only there for mistakes....and lately they have been there for the express use of ATC mistakes - the "slam dunk" approach seems to be a new favorite followed closely by the rookie ATC requests I've been getting on the East Coast:

1.) Descend/Maintain one-one, eleven thousand (from FL's)
2.) I need a good rate down please
3.) Slow to 250, next sector's request

The lawn dart doesn't go down and slow down - ever.

The CRJ is an exceptional airplane - there are so many exceptions to the rule!

 

[aewanabe]

By "fully configured", I think the OP is referring to Flaps 45. In the Brazilian super lawn-dart, Flaps 9 and gear can both come out at 250K, so that's not really an issue. You can also use boards, so it's not hard to get the airplane to slow down and come down, to about 190-180K. (At 200 you can throw out Flaps 22). The problem is, the airplane is smarter than us pilots, and the spoilers automatically retract as the Flaps extend past 18 degrees. The airplane has a ridiculous Flaps 45 Vfe of 145 knots (with target speeds between 125-140 depending on weight), which means now you're trying to slow from 180 or so to 145 to really get the barn doors out. This CAN be done on the glideslope, but only if you have a few miles to play with. Basically you can be high or fast at the marker and stay on slope, but not both. OTOH, if you shallow the descent and get those flaps 45 out, you can now come down at 1700-1800FPM on target and re-catch the GS from the top. You have to be on your game to do this, though, and it makes a lot of guys nervous. Too easy to forget the power and blow right through the slope going low if you're new to the airplane. I THINK that's what the OP was asking. For you Canadair drivers, must be nice to have an airplane where you can actually use boards all the way down (although when I ride upfront with y'all it still looks like you're pointed straight down with that 2-3 degree nose-low angle!)

 

[rattler]

you should visit www.expressjetpilots.com or www.calforums.com/coexboard


there are alot of hot sticks on those sites who can tell you everything that you need to know about flying jets.

I fly the E145 and slow to 145 at FL200 and put in gear down and flaps 45 and fly Vref all the way in to 50 feet above touchdown. That way, I am set up and don't need to actually slow to cross that 50' point at Vref. Now THAT's being ahead of the game. My F/O's are constantly impressed and offer to buy my drinks and meals all over the civilized world.

Sincerely,

B. Franklin

Ben, that's awesome! I've been trying to get FOQA of the month also. Next time I'll buy the beer.

Now seriously folks have you ever heard the saying "you can slow down, and you can go down but you can't slow down and go down" There is alot of truth to this. On a normal profile you will have no problem crossing the marker at 190 knts, gear down, flaps 22, idle thrust and being completely configured and stablized by 1000 AGL. In the extreme case that you are cleared for a visual at an anusually high altitude, it most cases it is your fault, ie. poor planning. However sometimes it is not. If you just pitch the nose over and throw everything out, it will be very difficult to be configured by 1000 AGL(we require 1000 in vis), you are much better off to slow down first, then begin the decent. This way you can hit the 1000 AGL(or 500) mark, if you don't you should go around.
High energy idle approaches has been a hot topic lately at our company as we continue to add more airports in moutainous areas, as revealed by FOQA data. More important than the method used is to make sure you have a stabilized approach from the altitude required by your company and the FAA.

 

[climb2slow]

Landing Gear first - CRJ

Is it my imagination or am I the only person who has gotten "GEAR DISAGREE" when trying the "gear first" option on a CRJ without the reach for the hydraulics panel?

----
I believe the #2 pump is not enerized unless the flaps are greater than zero. So when you go Gear first with no flaps, you only have the #3 pump working. Combine that with the higher speed and you get the message. Try turning on the #2 pump before you select gear down with 0 flaps and you won't get the message.

Don't know it Logic is 100% right, but I know that if the #2 pump is on, no message.

 

[18 Driver]

Quote from JD2003: "In the first scenario you run the risk of not getting configured by the prescribed altitude (500'AGL for visuals)"

Just to clarify the CFM says we "must be in an approved and planned landing configuration (no lower than 1,000 ft. above TDZE in IMC AND VMC)

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Landing Gear first - CRJ

Is it my imagination or am I the only person who has gotten "GEAR DISAGREE" when trying the "gear first" option on a CRJ without the reach for the hydraulics panel?The CRJ is an exceptional airplane - there are so many exceptions to the rule!

Keep in mind that creating ones own procedures in a no-no. Unless your operator has created a doc that says you can do it... you really can't. (I know I know).

For example on the CRJ, if you closed DC Tie 1 and 2 before you turn on Gen2 the aircraft will not kick out auto tune, YD2, Vspeeds, baro etc....

However, no where is this allowed...so it can't be done.... So when creating ones own procedures...where is the line drawn...

 

[Carl_Spackler]

For example on the CRJ, if you closed DC Tie 1 and 2 before you turn on Gen2 the aircraft will not kick out auto tune, Vspeeds, baro etc...

Is that on a particular model of the CRJ ie -100? In my experience on the -200 the auotune does sometimes, but I haven't seen the V speeds or the baro reset.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Is that on a particular model of the CRJ ie -100? In my experience on the -200 the auotune does sometimes, but I haven't seen the V speeds or the baro reset.

The biggest one is the auto tune and YD2. I think Bomardier says Vspeeds, Alt., baro, etc, just to cover themselves...

 

[FlyChicaga]

A good thing to remember is that leveling off to quickly bleed speed for the final flap setting (ERJ: Flaps 45 @ 145 KIAS) will mean you are quickly reducing your closure rate on the airport. By flying the glideslope and letting the speed bleed off more slowly, you have a higher closure rate on the runway.

I've been slam-dunked a few times, and this is what worked for me.

Spoilers if needed to 250 knots.
Flaps 9, continued spoilers if needed.
Gear down around 220 knots.
Flaps 22 at 200 knots, spoilers in.
Intermediate level off to 145 knots about 1500 feet AGL. Works best if slowed to at least 180 knots.
At 145 knots, flaps 45, start down to rejoin glideslope slowly (not chop and drop), using about 45% N1 instead of the ~60% N1 needed normally.

Or even better just use a slip. Works great, lasts long time.



Kidding.