VirginAmerica salary scale?

[Hugh Jorgan]

It is going to go down, because management now has a source of cheaper labor. Somebody that is doing it for "fun."

Same situation as the flying.

Okay, you are coming close to the heart of the matter.

I think you are able to grasp the supply and demand concept. THAT is what drives the prices of goods and services. It has a hill of beans relevance to whether someones' profession is the hobby of a few or large number of others.
Your analogy is weak at best and only shows more of the supply and demand concept (but even then, not very well. One does not walk off the street to become and executive chef). The relevance is in how many people's profession are in the given profession. If there is an overabundance of Culinary Institute-trained, experienced executive chefs out there, the salaries will go down. If there are a shortage, the salaries will go up. Again, hobbyists in the given field have ZERO relevance.

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

Hugh,
I have several friends that have a master's license with a sailboat endorsement. Nobody is making much money with their license, especially in the more pleasant sailing venues.

Pretty much supports the supply and demand theory, doesn't it? There are plenty of people out there who have sailboat endorsements on their master's license and do just fine. I have several friends who have a lot of aviation ratings. A lot of them don't make much money either. It's not because other people fly for a hobby. It's because there are a lot of people who want to do that kind of work, and most of them aren't trying to be paid pilots as a "hobby".

There are a lot of people who play with their computers as a hobby. I'm one of them. Why do you suppose computer programmers make good coin? I'll pull it out with the risk of stepping on it and say.....BECAUSE THE DEMAND EXCEEDS THE SUPPLY!!!!!!

Sheesh.

 

[AA717driver]

You know what? I used to think the money was the bottom line. That was until I made $160k one year and was miserable. The year I made $120k and had a great quality of life was great. I would go back in a heartbeat.

BTW, I haven't heard anyone giving $hit to the top 75 or 100 people at JB. Why is that? They took a low paying job at a startup in '99 or 2000. They were lowering the bar at the time. Anyone want to give them crap?

I have my stuff in at VA and I'll probably take the job if it's offered. I've been watching the VBlue discussions on pprune and they seem to have pretty good QOL. There's more to life than maxing out your W2.TC

P.S.--I don't care if anyone thinks I'm lowering the bar. MY bar got lowered for me...

 

[JohnDoe]

Hugh,
"One does not walk off the street to become and executive chef"

That was a hypothetical situation. Would you feel better if I had added "and I went to culinary school in the evenings, graduating with honors, and did years of under-study with my world-renowned chef of an uncle" to my scenario???



"The relevance is in how many people's profession are in the given profession. If there is an overabundance of Culinary Institute-trained, experienced executive chefs out there, the salaries will go down. If there are a shortage, the salaries will go up. "

I understand that, and that is my point. Perhaps if the "demand" for pilot positions didn't include those that are only in it for "fun" or to "play" airline pilot, and don't care about the poor salary because they have other employment, then the supply might exceed that demand, and management may have to raise salaries. Slim chance I agree, but you never know. After all, whiskey said he comes across lots of 'em.

You are focusing waaayyy too much on this word "hobby."

 

[RJP]

You know what? I used to think the money was the bottom line. That was until I made $160k one year and was miserable. The year I made $120k and had a great quality of life was great. I would go back in a heartbeat.

If you had said you made $160k, got furloughed and took a job at Home Depot™ for $8.50 and hour, it would be a lot easier to empathize. $120k? Don't know how you survived......

Lowered the bar! Ha.

 

[Flash 7]

"And flash7, he obviously doesn't care about the wages."

As I stated before, I would love to make $500/HR flying but thats not the point.

The point is that some of us have other businesses that pay well so we are not soley reliant on flying. It has turned into a "hobby" for me as well. Mostly because I like to be at home with my family as much as I can. If you do not agree with that or you think that myself or Whiskey are bringing down the industry because we had the foresight to plan our futures with a backup plan then so be it.

If you really want to know why pilot salaries are coming down study economics.


Good day

 

[dash8driver]

Then again, when you have an alternate source of income you're less likely to cave-in when management threatens the pilot group or you have to go on a strike. After all, you already have the only source of power that management has over you, money.

sounds like this is another attempt at scapegoating. WE are the problem, but its difficult to admit that. there are too many of us, so lets find a group thats different that we can plug into the formula so we're not the problem, its others among us. I would bet that the % of hobbiests from the entire professional pilot community is very small in number than when compared the # of qualified pilots that are in excess of whats needed.

airline pilots are like tomatos... when there is a drought and the crops have a low yield, the prices of tomatos go up. when there is a bumper crop and the market is flooded with tomatos, the prices go down. except in aviation, the tomatos dont go away....they just accumulate. also, like tomatos, pilots are soft and gooey on the inside.

 

[JohnDoe]

quote:
"The point is that some of us have other businesses that pay well so we are not soley reliant on flying. It has turned into a "hobby" for me as well. "


Thats fine. But how would you like it if I decided to do your "other business that pays so well" as a hobby, or for fun? Because I have another job, and it is "fun" to me, I don't care about the money. So I end up doing your "other job that pays so well" for less money than you. That results in your pay going down as well. Would you like it?? I don't think you would, especially if your "bread and butter" is being done by somebody else for cheaper, and hurts you.

You are not soley reliant on flying, but alot of people are. This is a profession, but unfortunately, alot of people have the attitude of not caring what happens, just "as long as they get to fly." We are our own worst enemies.

As far as the pilot salaries coming down, you are correct, maybe I shouldn't have included that phrase and just left it at regional salaries. I also see this same situation in 135 ops.

 

[climbhappy]

quote: so you are both okay with agreeing to work for crap wages and , Hence,(big word) promote management's ability to pay said crap wages. BY JOHN DOE

PURE BULL$HIT: THE MARKET SETS THE PRICE, EVER BEEN TO AN ECON 101 CLASS? RIGHT NOW, NOT TOO MANY AIRLINE CEOS ARE SETTING THE WORLD ON FIRE IN AN ERA OF $44/BARRLE CRUDE, THE PROBLEM IS THERE IS NO REGULATION REGARDING SEAT QUALIFICATIONS FOR TYPE. IF EVERY MORON WHO WANTED TO PRACTICE LAW WAS ALLOWED TO PAY 24,000 AND HAVE A BAR LICENCE IN ONE YEAR, THEN WE HAVE MORE COURTROOMS THAN AIRLINE GATES. AND A PACKED COURTHOUSE IT WOULD BE.

BUSINESS PEOPLE WERE FLAT TIRED OF PAYING 1800 BUCS FOR A LAST MINUTE FIVE HUNDRED MILE FLIGHT.

 

[CSY Mon]

BUSINESS PEOPLE WERE FLAT TIRED OF PAYING 1800 BUCS FOR A LAST MINUTE FIVE HUNDRED MILE FLIGHT

On the other hand, business was blooming back then...Supply and demand again.

 

[dash8driver]

quote: so you are both okay with agreeing to work for crap wages and , Hence,(big word) promote management's ability to pay said crap wages. BY JOHN DOE

since when is it that when you get hired at an airline its a wage bidding process to see who gets the job? do they take a poll in the interview and ask what you'd fly for and then take the lowest bidder? no its not. its purely based on the # of total pilots wanting the job. when there are very few pilots available they offer more pay, to entice the pilots to come work for them rather than the other company. when there is an abundance of pilots, they can afford to pay less because if you dont want the job, there are 10 behind you that do.

its a pretty simple concept, really....

 

[starchkr]

A smart man will always have something on the side for when times are tough. Why would anyone rely on just a single profession to pay their bills? For myself, i run a fishing charter on the weekends, which costs $1000 a day for the boat and all equip and bait. My expenses run approx $300 for the entire trip. This more than makes up the slack that my current flying job leaves me with. and if i had to i could easily live off the income generated by it alone. As far as this thread goes...as said before, WHY would you rely on one thing to provide for your family? Shouldn't you have a back up plan to provide for them? As far as flying as a hobby...yeah, so some of us do it...so what?!?! The arguements against it are ludacris! Also, as far as supply and demand...well i can go with that.

 

[JohnDoe]

quote from dash8driver:
"its purely based on the # of total pilots wanting the job. when there are very few pilots available they offer more pay, to entice the pilots to come work for them rather than the other company. "

I believe I have already agreed to and stated that premis.........


quote from starckr:
"WHY would you rely on one thing to provide for your family? "

You're right, people that only work in one profession in this country are in the minority.......
And who said anything about "when times are tough."


Say what you want, but as someone who derives their income off of flying, it torques me to see someone who doesn't care what wages are being paid because they are only there to have "fun."

 

[dash8driver]

quote from dash8driver:
"its purely based on the # of total pilots wanting the job. when there are very few pilots available they offer more pay, to entice the pilots to come work for them rather than the other company. "

I believe I have already agreed to and stated that premis.........

you've failed to state why this group within the larger supply group is more responsible than the rest. is there some kind of salary bidding that goes on before they hire?

no one said they didnt want to make more. but lets go with your assumption and say that they didnt care...what if they did care to make more? would that somehow affect the supply and demand premise?

 

[Wiskey Driver]

Ok now all you p31 and Jr cessna pilots get a clue!!!! TWA, Pan Am, Braniff, Eastern UNSTABLE career!!! Grow the Fuk up. No one said anything about poor wages did they?? Now what I said if you cared to pay attention instead of typing you would have gotton the fact that I was a non supporter of concession when I was a regional pilot and very loud about it at that. What my point was children!! is this always have a back up plan!!!

Next time you people want to ban wagon a subject you best have and know all the facts prior to stepping to me with that BS. I really ain't no easy A$$ whip!!!!

WD.

 

[AA717driver]

RJP--The $120k happened before the AA bucks. Sorry I didn't clarify that in the post.TC

 

[tkr-toad]

More than one career???

Now, why would I want to work two careers simultaneously to put food on the table? Personally, I was fortunate enough to marry a woman who has a career of her own (part time right now as I do well enough to support our not-living-above- our-means lifestyle). Now, I'll never be faboulously wealthy, but I'm happy where I'm at with a good balance of $$$ and QOL. I agree that owning your own business is the only way to go to keep the balance and generate addtional income.

 

[Wiskey Driver]

Now, why would I want to work two careers simultaneously to put food on the table? Personally, I was fortunate enough to marry a woman who has a career of her own (part time right now as I do well enough to support our not-living-above- our-means lifestyle). Now, I'll never be faboulously wealthy, but I'm happy where I'm at with a good balance of $$$ and QOL. I agree that owning your own business is the only way to go to keep the balance and generate addtional income.

Tkr Toad, that was my only true point!!!! ALWAYS HAVE A BACK UP.

WD.

 

[johnny taliban]

As facinating as I have found this debate, may I suggest that someone PLEASE try and answer the original poster's question.

Johnny

 

[starchkr]

Nobody can answer the original posters question.... Because no-one knows what it is going to be. Sure there are lots of people specualting, but they all have no clue what is going on. I hope we are all surprised by their scale when it finally does come out...surprised that it will be competetive that is. Now i know some of you feeble minds will come back and tell us all how you "know" it will be much less than average, so go ahead, show your immaturity, we can all see it already anyways...I just think everyone is jumping to conclusions too quickly with out there being any evidence whatsoever as to what they will provide.

We will all have to wait and see.