Virgin must make changes to retain U.S. citizenship

[cmrflyer]

It is a sad pay scale, it pathetic. no body will argue with that.

The pay is low, but as a new start up it is to be expected. Did you look at jetblues pay when they started? Did you see the 190 pay when they got that? $89 hr for a 12 year captain?
Things have changed at JB, and they will change a Virgin.
There are many established, large airlines that pay like arse. Have you seen airtrans pay?
Whats your pay rate, industry leading?
Do some research next time.

 

[Q400 Gear Bitch]

So, to answer your question, Alaska is managing their airline and getting rid of VA is a step in the right direction.

Maybe the Air Group should worry more about furloughs at both Alaska and Horizon than what Virgin America is doing. Just my 2 cents.

 

[firstthird]

Maybe the Air Group should worry more about furloughs at both Alaska and Horizon than what Virgin America is doing. Just my 2 cents.

don't you get it that the two might be related? You have yet another start up depress yields on an entire coast, it is not wonder the airlines are having trouble.

 

[jonjuan]

don't you get it that the two might be related? You have yet another start up depress yields on an entire coast, it is not wonder the airlines are having trouble.

And yet Southwest had and still has the same depressive effect on more established legacy airlines. Most at WN are pretty happy with where they ended up, pay wise.

 

[BushwickBill]

Skinner is the father of open skies. He's got an agenda that is not in labor's best interest. Don't forget Don Carty and David Cush. They did a great job lining their pockets over at AMR. You've got some real pilot haters over there.

You hit the nail on the head. They are not just pilot haters. They are part of the upper class of society that will go to no end to become even richer. These are the people making the middle class a thing of the past. These people are using globalization to their advantage to strip the middle class of QOL and wealth to line their own pockets. That is why the only jobs you can find now are low wage service jobs. Most of the good jobs are moving overseas.

 

[firstthird]

And yet Southwest had and still has the same depressive effect on more established legacy airlines. Most at WN are pretty happy with where they ended up, pay wise.

There is a difference. SWA made and still makes, knock on wood, money. Independence Air, Skybus, Express Jet, and now Virgin America didn't/don't. Yet they each managed to depress yields in large swaths of markets for 2 years or so while they ran through investors' money. They didn't all have a choice (Indy and Expressjet sort of got left holding the bag and made an attempt to go solo, neither of which worked). Skybus tried to bring a Ryan Air model over, they failed. VA is riding on the Virgin brand. Maybe they will work out, maybe they won't; but one thing they have done is depress transcon and intra-CA/west cost yields since they've been operating.

SWA went to SFO, probably to keep VA in check. I suspect we're in MKE for a similar reason with RAH. We aren't in either place to destroy anyone, just to make sure that they earn their growth; competing for the market with another LCC rather than taking it from a legacy.

I get that there is a shoe on the the other foot thing now. Maybe it is inevitable. as long as we're all playing by the same rules, which is why I'm glad that VA had its finances looked at.

 

[Q400 Gear Bitch]

don't you get it that the two might be related? You have yet another start up depress yields on an entire coast, it is not wonder the airlines are having trouble.

No I don't think they are related. I'm sure Bill Ayer would like the employees to think that. Air Group is making money, it's stock is soaring...and they're putting peeps on the street. I know they have always been ultra conservative, but I think that's a little over the top.

 

[CaptSeth]

we aren't in either place to destroy anyone, just to make sure that they earn their growth

hahahahahhahahahahahhahahahhahahahhahahahahha

 

[jayme]

hahahahahhahahahahahhahahahhahahahhahahahahha

I second that. Southwest wanted what, now? To make sure they earned their growth? Like a parent wanting the child to know the value of a dollar, like? GMAFB.

SW depresses yields all the time. The only reason they make money and VA doesn't is because of the massive amount of money required to start and grow an airline while earning passenger loyalty during an economic tsunami. SW also started very slowly whereas VA is trying to jump into the marketplace quickly.

 

[firstthird]

SW depresses yields all the time. The only reason they make money and VA doesn't is because of the massive amount of money required to start and grow an airline while earning passenger loyalty during an economic tsunami. SW also started very slowly whereas VA is trying to jump into the marketplace quickly.

It isn't depressing yields if you make money and pay a good wage. We do and we do. Lots of airlines "try to jump into the marketplace quickly." they also burn through investors capital and lose money while depressing yields.

it isn't about being a parent. It is about preventing our competition from having a 'safe' place to expand. If RAH or Airtran want MKE, they'll get it while we are there. If VA wants to be the king of SFO, they'll do it while we're there. just one man's opinion and not a very smart man at that.

 

[redflyer65]

Well said FirstThird. It's the same reason SWA is in Dulles. To have a presence there and to compete head to head instead of having a low cost carrier come in to compete against the other distant SWA hub (ie, BWI or OAK)

Just my opinion, but I think VA operates on only one premise..

That Branson has a foothold in the US for what he hopes is a complete Open Skies agreement. Once that's gone, he will combine the UK, Australian and US components into one. He doesn't mind losing money for the final goal. Then he can use whatever nationality of pilots that will be the cheapest.

 

[jayme]

It isn't depressing yields if you make money and pay a good wage.

No, it's depressing the yield if the yield is depressed. Period.

 

[firstthird]

No, it's depressing the yield if the yield is depressed. Period.

You are right about that. I overstated my case. It isn't depressing OUR yield. If someone else has a higher cost structure or more overhead to cover, then a price point that makes SWA money may very well lose that other airline money.

Admittedly, the cost advantage for SWA has decreased a bunch recently. I'm hoping that the airlines that lost their pensions and saw work rules gutted during the recent spate of bankruptcies can start to get some decent contracts again, for all of our sakes.

 

[jonjuan]

You are right about that. I overstated my case. It isn't depressing OUR yield. If someone else has a higher cost structure or more overhead to cover, then a price point that makes SWA money may very well lose that other airline money.

Huh? It is depressing YOUR yield. You may still be making money, but not as much if there was no competition. It affects your profitability and in turn how much your company shares with you at the end of the year.

 

[firstthird]

Jonjuan,

I was replying to Jayme who said "No, it's depressing the yield if the yield is depressed. Period." the debate is whether or not VA is depressing yields on the west coast. I say they are. a VA supported argued that SWA also depresses yields. I countered that we aren't depressing our yields, since we're still making money. but I overstated.

the whole argument is sort of silly and I'm sorry for getting into it. the fact remains that SWA returned to SFO for a reason, and I doubt that reason was that we missed the delays or needed more of a bay area presence (with OAK and SJC already). it was because VA was starting.

I guess we'll see in the end how it all works out. Branson has deep pockets but he is also notorious for being an unsympathetic boss when it comes to losing money. he makes the hard decision and gets out if necessary (virgin nigeria anyone?). it is tough times all around for the industry, no arguing that.