Virgin fuels fare war between U.S. airlines

[PCL_128]

Pinnacle CRJ pay and work rules are hardly "average". There crap.... and just like you PCL 128 I support ALPA, but calling PCL pay and work rules average is a little off.

In 1999 when the agreement was made, the PCL pay rates and work rules were average. Remember, this contract was signed before any of the huge advances were made with carriers such as CMR and Horizon. Back when the agreement was signed, the rates and work rules were pretty good, especially for a small Saab operator with maybe a prospect of getting regional jets someday. Trying to compare an 8 year old agreement to all of the new contracts isn't a valid comparison.

 

[B-J-J Fighter]

In 1999 when the agreement was made, the PCL pay rates and work rules were average. Remember, this contract was signed before any of the huge advances were made with carriers such as CMR and Horizon. Back when the agreement was signed, the rates and work rules were pretty good, especially for a small Saab operator with maybe a prospect of getting regional jets someday. Trying to compare an 8 year old agreement to all of the new contracts isn't a valid comparison.

If you look at Comair, ASA, and AWAC, which I know is not all the regionals at the time that operated the CRJ, PCL pay and work rules were and are not average.

 

[PCL_128]

If you look at Comair, ASA, and AWAC, which I know is not all the regionals at the time that operated the CRJ, PCL pay and work rules were and are not average.

Care to provide a reference to back up that assertion? All of my ALPA negotiations records are packed away now, but I can assure you that when you averaged all of the payrates for CBAs that contained 50-seat jet rates in 1999, the PCL rates were middle of the pack. They quickly fell behind as the other carrier negotiated new CBAs in the next few years, but the rates at the time were not below standard.

 

[BigMeat]

PCL_128

I have no beef with Gulfstream PFTers and I although I don't agree with it, I have no qualms with pilots who elect to go that route. What puzzles me is that you have some major agend in degrading everyone with whom you think is "selling out the industry" or "dragging the industry down" and as a former Gulfstream PFTer you don't have ANY credibility whatsoever in preeching about "dragging the industry down". I could care less about what you did 8 years ago and I don't hold that against you but at the same time you should get off your high horse and stop being flight info's biggest hypocrite.

Respectfully, Splitbar

PFT is long gone. Its not coming back anytime in the near future. VA is here and they are the threat. They are an "outside entity". I can see how PFT was a problem. It isnt anymore. Lets get our priority straight! VA and Pres. Bush that allowed this are the real threats. I wonder what he will do before he leaves. Maybe allow open skies with China? That would suck donkey bals!

 

[kngarthur]

No, the government should have denied VA a certificate because it is a foreign-owned airline and worse, a "hobby business" started by some aviation romantic who imagines himself cut from the same cloth as Juan Trippe or Herb Kelleher, convenietly ignoring the fact that he is worth twelve billion dollars and unlike publicly-held companies, does not have to show a profit.

I hope he is sent packing by the free market. (Probably not since he is above such economic realities.)

Since the US dollar is losing value, and with the threat of inflation, foriegn companies are at an unfair advantage of dumping prices.

Try to tell that to our idiodic government! Sell out's!!!! I bet a 300 pound hooker would would sell herself for more than some of our politicians.

Maybe our government should stop wasting time by trying to control the climate through taxes, aka "Global Warming".

 

[HA25]

Take a look at our payrates and work rules, and then compare them to VA. VA is doing the work for 2/3rds of what everyone else is, with the exception of Skybus, which is doing it for 1/3rd.

I remember when I said the same stuff about Airtran and Southwest back in 2000... when the majors were working on their big contracts.. so it cuts both ways.

btw.. Skybus pay is actually not what it seems.. fact is, their 1st year pay is more than all but UPS, Fedex and by a hair, DAL.. and they pay 100% medical while in training unlike CAL.. more over, inside one year, you're a CA with a 80-90K/yr paycheck, and that's 1st year CA pay.. then there is profit sharing and the 5000 stock options which depending on how the company does can be worth peanuts or a million or more.. so it's not like they're doing anything different than Southwest did when they were an upstart.

In the end, the biggest problem is the lack of unity in this profession and the free for all that has come into place due to the corporate nature of ALPA tying a pilot to his airline, and not his profession.

 

[Daytonaflyer]

Skybus is the last of our problems compared to VA. The problem is that VA will be subsidized by the rest of Bransons companies. Companies like T-mobile, Virgin records, Virgin Atlantic etc.

Richard Branson owns neither T-Mobile, nor Virgin Records. He sold Virgin Records in 1992 and he never owned T-Mobile. T-Mobile is owned by Deutsche Telekom. You are probably thinking of Virgin Mobile.

Both Richard Branson and T-Mobile owned half of Virgin Mobile, but they are not affiliated other than that.

Virgin America entered the market with around $177 million and Skybus entered the market with over $160 million in startup capital. In comparison, Jet Blue only managed $130 million when they began. Plus Skybus has 12 years of tax incentives and business loans from the Port of Columbus.

I wouldn't underestimate Skybus.

 

[HA25]

Virgin America entered the market with around $177 million and Skybus entered the market with over $160 million in startup capital. In comparison, Jet Blue only managed $130 million when they began. Plus Skybus has 12 years of tax incentives and business loans from the Port of Columbus.

I wouldn't underestimate Skybus.

Skybus also had the foresight to purchase 12 year maintenance contracts on every one of their 65 319's so that they don't fall into the trap that B6 fell into when their warranty crapped out..

I'd say they have as much chance to make it the next 5 years as anyone else.. UAL, DAL, et al included.

 

[vixin]

Stybus pay,
Capt pay is $68.42/hr, FO $31.58/hr

Some fuzzy math to say Stybus 1st year pay is 80-90G. After 1 year at SWA one would make more. Yet you didnt mention them in your previous post.

 

[HA25]

Stybus pay,
Capt pay is $68.42/hr, FO $31.58/hr

Some fuzzy math to say Stybus 1st year pay is 80-90G. After 1 year at SWA one would make more. Yet you didnt mention them in your previous post.

I am told they don't pay per/hour but more of a trip credit method, so this is how the 85-90 is achieved. More over, WN wasn't exactly an industry leading paycheck 30 years ago when they were in their infancy. I'm sure if Skybus makes it as a business model, and generate enough market share, their pilots will demand more.. it's the natural order of things, humans always want more, and more, and more.. which is a good thing.

 

[BOOZENEWS]

And the one thing every pilot ought to take from this thread?


Freight is where the $$$ and job security is at!! UPS and Fedex have grown substantially post 9/11. No Skybus or VA equivilant on the horizion in the cargo world to knock out these 2 giants. Pretty hard barriers to entry to start up a shipping company that could even have a chance to compete with Brown or Purple!

 

[HA25]

And the one thing every pilot ought to take from this thread?


Freight is where the $$$ and job security is at!! UPS and Fedex have grown substantially post 9/11. No Skybus or VA equivilant on the horizion in the cargo world to knock out these 2 giants. Pretty hard barriers to entry to start up a shipping company that could even have a chance to compete with Brown or Purple!

No, totally disagree.. what you can get is that Pilot pay will be directly related to company income.. Therefore, UPS and Fedex, both of which consistently make billions can afford to pay well (frankly a lot better than they do now). Southwest, also a money maker is pay quite well... as well as UPS in my opinion.. BUT.. airlines that aren't making money are less in a position, and the NMB mediators who will arbitrate contracts are in less of a position to award them more favorable pay as a result of their companies inability to make a consistent and strong profit. After all, if Cargo was where all the money is, then why are Atlas, Polar, Gemini, and the other cargo carriers paying so poorly, and with poor work rules and benefits?

Skybus, on the other hand is borrowing on Ryan Air's model. If in Europe with it's more culturally classy population people are paying for the form of discount airfare in droves and making Ryan Air a profitable venture, then there is even a better chance that in the trailer park infested US, there is even a bigger market for this. Therefore, Skybus might be the next Southwest story, where they find a market that has prior to been ignored, and hit the jackpot.. in which case, by rule, they're pilots will do the same (especially those with 4600 stock options on top of the profit sharing). At some point, if Skybus makes it, and becomes very profitable, don't be surprised if they're earning more than the DAL and CAL pilots who will be flying larger equipment into more complicated airports on longer trips (with multiple overnights) to do so.

Skybus is the most capitalized new airline in US History, and they've got a model that's frankly a lot better than JB, VA and other Johnny come lately LCC's.. why? Because it's differentiated from the rest of the pack.. it's new, and it's more like the successful Ryan Air..

Time will tell.

 

[Big Slick]

Did someone mention Ryan Air??

Islip Town officials have entered into talks with a European airline in the hopes of adding international flights at Long Island MacArthur, town Supervisor Phil Nolan said yesterday.

If a deal with Dublin-based Ryanair is approved, flights to Dublin and other European destinations could leave from the town-owned airport, located in Ronkonkoma, next year, officials said.

"Ryanair has indicated interest, and we'll be pursuing this very aggressively," he said.
International flights out of MacArthur were not possible in the past because the runways were too short to accommodate the larger planes needed for overseas travel, said Martin Holley, executive director of the national Aviation Technology Center at Dowling College.

But a new generation of smaller, quieter aircraft capable of traveling greater distances makes it "a serious opportunity," he said.

Islip is a particularly attractive location for Ryanair, Nolan said, because of its proximity to New York and its connections to other cities through Southwest Airlines, the airport's primary carrier.

Speaking a news conference at the airport yesterday, Nolan also announced the retirement of longtime airport manager Al Werner, who is leaving Nov. 16.

Werner, 78, began his career as an air traffic controller at MacArthur in 1952. He oversaw its growth from a small country airport to a regional transportation hub handling 2.3 million passengers a year. He'll remain on contract with the town as a consultant.

Werner said the biggest change he has seen at the airport occurred when Southwest, a Dallas-based airline, built two terminals. Although both US Airways and Delta also operate at MacArthur, Southwest carries 92 percent of passengers.

Southwest embarked on its $82-million expansion in 2003. Then, last year, cracks appeared in the newly installed concrete apron, the area where planes pull up to the terminal. Other problems, including fire hazards and financial irregularities, prompted investigations. But officials said passengers were never endangered. Repair work has begun on the cracks, and new sprinklers have been installed.

Nolan said the town recently won a five-year, $1.02-million grant from the Transportation Security Administration that former Supervisor Pete McGowan rejected. The grant will be used to reimburse the Suffolk County Police Department for costs it has incurred at the airport.

In addition, the town recently received $200,000 from the Suffolk County district attorney's office - unclaimed funds from a McGowan campaign fund seized by District Attorney Thomas Spota before McGowan pleaded guilty to felony charges last year stemming from his misuse of the fund.

The $200,000 will be supplemented by a $300,000 grant from the state Transportation Department and will be used to install security cameras.





Just wait until they are allowed to operate within the U.S.
How about a code share agreement between Ryan Air and Sky Bus?

 

[Daytonaflyer]

Skybus is the most capitalized new airline in US History, and they've got a model that's frankly a lot better than JB, VA and other Johnny come lately LCC's.. why? Because it's differentiated from the rest of the pack.. it's new, and it's more like the successful Ryan Air..
Time will tell.

Skybus WAS the airline with the most startup capital until Virgin America began. I think you are going off of old information; I read that article too, and it was before VA started.

 

[HA25]

Skybus WAS the airline with the most startup capital until Virgin America began. I think you are going off of old information; I read that article too, and it was before VA started.

nevertheless, they're onto something totally different, and have enough capital to give it a good shot.

Too bad really, but this is what de-regulation has given us.

 

[PinnacleDude]

No, totally disagree.. what you can get is that Pilot pay will be directly related to company income.. Therefore, UPS and Fedex, both of which consistently make billions can afford to pay well (frankly a lot better than they do now). Southwest, also a money maker is pay quite well... as well as UPS in my opinion.. BUT.. airlines that aren't making money are less in a position, and the NMB mediators who will arbitrate contracts are in less of a position to award them more favorable pay as a result of their companies inability to make a consistent and strong profit.

Great... then why doesn't Bus unionize and ask for more money? I make more as a regional Captain and that is sad!

 

[HA25]

Great... then why doesn't Bus unionize and ask for more money? I make more as a regional Captain and that is sad!

Their a mere 4 months old.. I'm sure that if/when the profits start rolling in, they'll have no choice but to raise them quite a bit. But with that said, unless you are a 12 year captain at most regionals today, I doubt you make more than them. Keep in mind, $65K is the sit on your ass and not fly a bit more than guarantee. From what I'm told, many of them are working 16-18 days a month and making $85-90K on the CA side, and $36-40K on the FO side.. that's a good bit more than most RJ's and it should be.. it's a 150+ seat 319. I predict that in a couple of years, if they're still around and making the kind of money Ryan is making, they'll be paying B6 rates+profit share, and those stock options will being to have some serious value.

Again, I think Skybus is going to surprise people but only time will tell, so let's stop going in circles and just wait. This thread will still be here.

 

[Caveman]

Skybus is the most capitalized new airline in US History, and they've got a model that's frankly a lot better than JB, VA and other Johnny come lately LCC's.. why? Because it's differentiated from the rest of the pack.. it's new, and it's more like the successful Ryan Air..

Time will tell.

1. They are the most capitalized because they are the most recent. JetBlue was until VA came along. VA was until Skybus came along. The next airline will probably start out with a bigger warchest than Skybus did. The cost of doing business keeps increasing. I'm betting that in 2000 dollars the startup for VA and Skybus is real similar to what JetBlue started with.

2. How is the Skybus business model "a lot better than JB"? Just because you have a monopoly on the highly competitive and desirable Bellingham to CMH market? You cram 150+ into a 319, charge extra for everything, fly to alternative cities and that somehow automatically makes your model better than the 8th largest U.S. airline? You haven't even posted your 1st ever quarter results yet. How do you know you have a good model? Frankly, most folks think you have a weird business model. Well funded or not, the jury is definitely still out on whether or not Skybus will be successful.

We agree on one thing: time will tell.

 

[HA25]

Good post Caveman.. In the end there is a lot of risk to their plan, but if there is one thing I learned from an MBA in Finance is this..

RISK=RETURN

 

[BigMeat]

VA to me is a threat. Skybus is an annoyance that will soon shed enough money to go away. 65 dollars an hour to fly the aircraft that their peers do for twice as much. Do you people have no respectability? Even if they do stay in business why would you go there. Go to a good company like Expressjet and ASA. At least there you can make a good living with great benefits.