Virgin America provokes fare wars at LAX

[waveflyer]

Did you notice what our payscales were before we had the bk gun put to our heads?? When JB, VA raises the bar on pay/work rules let us know will ya.........................

and what were your payrates when you were a startup?

That's my entire point-- whether your a new startup or being told liquidation is a reality- pay is awful for pilots at companies that are fighting for their existence--- Now ask why?

It's b/c we start completely over like a kid out of college at near poverty wages every time we change companies-= and it's so dumb it's ridiculous... If we don't change- we'll be talking about lower numbers than this...

we have to make it easier to change companies.

BTW -- don't thump your chest if you're at any of the network majors- you're the reason our union's been broken-- between scope, whipsawing, b-scales, and bankruptcy concessions (w/ noone choosing to hold the line on pay!) you're all the source of this industry"s problems...

 

[ualdriver]

ual- you're completely committed to blaming other much much smaller companies than realizing that as a member of a 10,000 pilot work force you've had much more influence on VA wages than any pilot applying there.

The only people who have direct "influence" on VA pilot wages right now are VA pilots. We tried to influence ALL pilot wages with Contract 2000, but apparently those wages were "too high" for the LCC's at the time. The legacies lost the ability to price airline pilot wages several years ago with the advent of the LCC's becoming credible competitors.

Until you see how you (ALPA) (APA) and our whole system creates this environment, nothing will change

ALPA, APA, perhaps SWAPA are the only organizations that will make a concerted effort to build upon what we have and/or hold onto what little we have gained. Certainly you're not arguing that JetBlue, VA, allegiant, Skybus2 pilots are ever going to raise the bar, are you? They'll ride (and pull on) the coat tails of the Union carriers and that's about it. However, if you hate ALPA, APA, SWAPA, unions in general, or whatever, feel free to blame them. They're the blame for just about everything. Just ask anyone.



.....logical conclusion to a system in which United is largely responsible for. Of course the pay is bad- so ask yourself- why would any pilot CHOOSE that? As the most influential player in this business-= how has UAL helped to create it? Worry about things YOU control.

We WERE probably one of the most influential in the business. Not anymore. Now whatever credible competitor can pay their employees the least becomes influential.

And United is largely responsible for VA pilots flying A320's for 90 bucks an hour or Skybus guys having done it for 60? United, and others, tried to build upon what others did years ago, only to be massively undercut. All UAL (or any legacy) can do is hope to build upon what we have, or hold onto what we have and hope that wages at undercutting airlines like VA don't become the "new bar" that the entire industry is forced down to.


And I have never said the ship sinks or swims based on pilot pay- You have, however.

I have. And I'll say it again. If a credible competitor has pilot labor costs significantly lower than that of UA or DAL or whoever, the latter is screwed. Airlines paying their pilots $200+ hour + a B fund + a pension + great work rules will suffer tremendously at an A320 operator flying it's Airbus Captians for a hundred bucks an hour, no retirement, and no work rules. Look no further than several years ago for an example of the repercussions of such behavior.

Further, if that competitor's pilot labor costs are extremely low, the other employee group's certainly will be as well. You have to remember that airlines are not entities that can absorb costs that are "out of whack" in any form. Since an airline's largest controllable costs are labor, that certainly is a cost that CAN AND WILL sink the ship.

And if you're disgareeing with me fine. I guess I would wonder, then, is if pilot pay "doesn't matter," then why do management teams at airlines like Virgin, Allegiant, Skybus, JetBlue, etc., set it so low? If pilot pay "doesn't matter," couldn't just Virgin America management just set Virgin pilot Captain pay rates to the lowest of the legacy's? I mean, you guys say that Virgin management is fantastic and that you have a great pilot-managment relationship but..........what you're telling me is that Virgin management could pay your Captains more (for example) and just don't respect your pilot group enough to do so? Or just doesn't feel like it? Or......what? If it pilot pay doesn't matter, why don't they just throw you a bone instead of paying your Captains 90 bucks an hour? I mean, c'mon, they couldn't even set the Captain pay rates to UAL's rates with a B&C fund contribution? Don't they respect you guys enough to pay "lowly" UAL pilot Captain rates?

Or maybe pilot pay DOES matter and that's why airlines like Virgin set it so low? Something to think about I guess.


And no- UAL management would NOT be happy w/ you if you flew for $95/hour-(Christ, they already cut your pay in half and stole your pensions-- you still keep showing up to work at those wages- is anyone happier?) and the culture there certainly would not change. If you flew for a $1- they would be arguing to pay you 75cents and you and I both know it all too well.

Are you kidding me? They'd be THRILLED if we walked into our next contract negotiations and offered to fly at VA's rates. If that was our opener, we'd have the contract done in a week. AND, as a bonus, we'd have a FANTASTIC pilot/management relationship for being such great "team players."

Doesn't matter anyway. For my own personal safety , I'm not going to try to pass a resolution at my next Union meeting directing our MEC to direct our negotiation committee to shoot for the "lofty" goal of VA pilot wages in DEC '09. I think I would be hung and quartered, and probably rightfully so.

 

[ualdriver]

Done.......

And guys, I’m done (for now) debating this topic over and over. I'm tired of guys at JetBlue, Virgin, Allegiant, Skybus, whatever pointing fingers at the legacies while they initiate round 2 of the downward spiral. I'm also tired of a bunch of guys who haven't probably even cracked open an airlines' 10Q, read an annual report, visited the DOT website, listened to a conference call, or even cracked open a book about anything even related to airline finance telling me how guys flying and cleaning the cabins of E190's for 80 bucks an hour is "OK" and has little or no effect on the industry. How being an Airbus Captain for 65 bucks an hour is "OK" because they're getting stock options. How flying a MD88 for 60 bucks an hour is "OK" because the airline is "just starting out." After this, you guys can post away about how clueless I am or how it's all ALPA's fault, etc., etc. I'm done.

Airlines like UAL, DAL, NWA, etc., have LOST the ability to price airline pilot wages. There was a time when we could. Maybe there will be a time when we can again. My opinion is that when the LCC's of the late 90's and early 00's reached "critical mass" flying modern equipment instead of 3rd world DC-9's and 737's using discount airline pilot wages (and other employee group discount wages) the ability for legacies to hold up the bar was lost. Unions, unfortunately, aren't above the laws of economics. When you're running a business (like an airline) that is very labor intensive, and has very narrow net margins even in a good year, you cannot have any costs that are higher than your competitors (or at least the credible ones) and hope to stay in business for very long.

And my beef isn’t necessarily guys taking a job with an airline like VA or JetBlue in the early 2000’s for example, not that my beef necessarily matters. My problem is that the pilots of these groups saw the damage the LCC’s did to legacy pilot contracts in the early 00’s and still don’t want to do anything about it. You’re actually on here defending Round 2 of the downward spiral. Get together an organize yourselves and ask for a raise? Nope. Don’t want to do anything to get in the way of those fast upgrades. Get together and show us ALPA guys “how it’s done” when it comes to setting ANY sort of bar? Nope. It’s much easier to sit on the sidelines and throw stones from the cheap seats. When are we going to see the Virgin pilots do ANYTHING to better the industry for ANY pilot? How about an Allegiant pilot? They’ve been around long enough to get something together. JetBlue? Anything? Anyone?

So basically on this thread I’m staring at a bunch of guys who have PLENTY of criticism of me, UAL, ALPA, etc., but are doing NOTHING themselves for the industry but to set pilot pay compensation packages lower than what we were able to uphold during our respective bankruptcies. What is the Allegiant pilot group doing about the threat of foreign ownership? What are the JetBlue pilots doing about the treat of cabotage? Think we’ll ever see a VA pilot picketing in support of anything to better this profession?

My airline, and the pilots at my airline and may others, were a victim of LCC’s using discount airline pilot labor to undercut our wages and I, UAL, and ALPA are criticized for not being able to overcome the laws of airline economics? And, no less, by a bunch of guys who are undercutting us YET AGAIN then blaming me, UAL, and ALPA for it? Like I said, I’m done. And if you guys continue to sit on the sidelines and do nothing about the state of your contracts/agreements, we’re all going to be going through Round 2 of major concessions down the road……

 

[waveflyer]

i'm not done- i'll be working on fixing our issues until i get out of this business... You blame LCC's for all your problems, but fail to see how your concept of 1st year pay and seniority has affected everyone- you're still at one of the largest airlines in the world== but you'll have to explain selling out RJ's before you'll ever convince me that you aren't responsible for VA's rates-== i will give you that AMR and Delta are a lot more responsible= but united didn't do anything to stop the breaking of our union through scope and b-scales -

 

[waveflyer]

how about you get to work on the FACT that 50% of the pilots that fly for the UNITED brand do not work for UNITED or have a seniority number there.

let that sink in...

Major pilots who got hired flying Fokkers and 737's then replace those jets w/ RJ's- but don't allow those pilots representation- is the problem-- you created an environment where you have thousands upon thousands of pilots flying at C-scale wages looking for a job where VA is a considerable step up.

How is that not your responsibility? You didn't have to farm out so much of your flying. Did you think having so many pilots broke and disenfranchised would never come back to bite you? How shortsighted.

Southwest does all it's flying- and look at their pay- You got to take the log out of your own eye before you take the $95/hour sliver out of VA's

 

[skiav8tor]

Well, it's official...JetBlue just bailed on LAX!!

 

[AC560]

How is that not your responsibility?

And thus the reason why organized labor is largely doomed in America. There was a paradigm shift, unions rather then adapting continue to try to use the same tactics that worked for them in the 30's-60's. You see this with the USW, UAW, ALPA, etc. about the only which has adapted somewhat is the Teamsters.

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. LCC's happened, Virgin America happened, blaming somebody at UA/AA/NW for it probably isn't going to solve the problem. Likewise trying to stir up the solidarity to rally around a union to fight the fight isn't going to solve the problem either (unions in the airline industry have no power to do anything but give concessions or end up going out of business).

You guys would probably be better suited discussing how to change the way your industry is structured in a meaningful fashion, there is nobody to blame other then economic progress. It happened to everyone else in the world (downsize, rightsize, outsized, outsourced, resourced) why do you all feel that you are exempt.

 

[dago]

I do not work at Virgin, however if the pilot group is going to work and enjoying their day, good for them. I know that some guys get an a,b,c fund, that's great! When you turn 65 I hope you have plenty of money for the nicest golf cart money can buy. If we have 30 plus years of flying ahead of us, I would like to enjoy my job and it sounds like Virgin is a pretty good gig. Most other airlines can't say this. I can hardly read all the wining on these boards. I guarantee one will follow this post in minutes!

 

[waveflyer]

i don't blame UA/DL/NW/AA/CO for VA or any LCC- i blame them for the "regionals" and creating/allowing the situation where VA payrates are attractive to literally THOUSANDS of pilots that should be on their lists.

 

[UALjan15]

BK aside, it's amazing how quick an employee group will ratify a concessionary contract. And I think EVERYONE one would agree that NO concessionary contract has EVER resulted in preventing a BK filing or preventing a liquidation.

I want to believe what you claim here, and there are plenty of examples to back you up....but...not too many years ago (2002), American was pretty much at the courthouse steps with papers in hand when APA caved and gave them concessions. AA saved billions in pilot wages, avoided BK, and the pilots kept their pensions while most of the rest lost theirs. Now their pay is on the upper end of the pay scales relative to their major competitors (but still way too low).

Do you disagree? The above view is from an outsider's perspective, and I'd be curious if an insider would have a different take. Was the threat of BK a bluff just to get the concession package? Did the concession package make the difference in staying out of Ch. 11? It just seems to me that the AA guys are in a better place now than they would be if they had taken "full pay to the last day."