Virgin America expects US to DENY right to fly

[AA717driver]

Where's this altruistic nonsense coming from? Pilots are whores. Whether it's flying overtime with guys on furlough, placing others at a disadvantage in a merger so they can benefit personally (I'm talking about Delta/PanAm here... ) or undercutting the industry payrates, there is and has always been a certain segment of the pilot group out there who will engage in such behavior.

Pilots are santimonious hypocrites, too. If JetBlue started today, they'd get the same reaction as VA. Now, the W2's of those who got hired in the first couple classes are a hell of a lot higher than A320 pilots at NW, UA or USAir. A lot of the senior pilots at AA went there when the 17-years-to-parity B scale was in place. Selling your soul for a quick upgrade. That's novel...

So, who's lowering the bar? TC

P.S.--Face it--no one at a legacy wants VA to succeed because it's one more nail in the coffins of some of the legacies. Virgin Atlantic is a well-run airline offering great customer service (something the U.S. Legacies are short on). VA has the potential to lure more customers away from the Legacies and SWA. SWA is a great airline. We'll see how they compare.

 

[skykid]

Where's this altruistic nonsense coming from? Pilots are whores.

Speak for yourself. There are obviously a bunch of whores in this industry, I don't believe they are the majority.

If JetBlue started today, they'd get the same reaction as VA. Now, the W2's of those who got hired in the first couple classes are a hell of a lot higher than A320 pilots at NW, UA or USAir.

The Jetblue guys are getting paid poorly, just like the NW, UA and USAir guys.

 

[swa737-700]

I am thrilled that this thing is going in the crapper. I hope someone flushes before it has a chance to crawl back out.

If you are willing to work with at a company that will pay an A-320 Capt $90/hr --YOU ARE THE PROBLEM!!!! Not a part of the problem, THE problem. Regardless of how dire you feel your current situation is, you are essentially putting a bullet in your own future. Cannibalistic pricing of your services as a pilot will ensure that there is no "better" place that you can leave Virgin for in the future.

Not trying to be a D!CK here, but don't be a whore and then ask for respect in the morning.

PIPE

While I agree with you, it is much easier to say this when we have good jobs. If you have been on both sides of the furlough line, then you can spout off like this. Having been in the furlough line, I know what folks are thinking when they have a family to feed...and they do not give a dang about what you and/or I think.

 

[skykid]

While I agree with you, it is much easier to say this when we have good jobs. If you have been on both sides of the furlough line, then you can spout off like this. Having been in the furlough line, I know what folks are thinking when they have a family to feed...and they do not give a dang about what you and/or I think.

Agreed, I've been on both sides of the furlough line, and worked outside the industry until I could get a good paying flying job again. If you think all you can do is fly an airplane for minimum wage you are probably selling yourself short.

 

[Andy]

While I agree with you, it is much easier to say this when we have good jobs. If you have been on both sides of the furlough line, then you can spout off like this. Having been in the furlough line, I know what folks are thinking when they have a family to feed...and they do not give a dang about what you and/or I think.

I haven't turned a wheel since 2002.
When I got furloughed, I chose to leave the airline industry rather than whore myself out for foodstamp wages. Those that say that they don't have a choice are too lazy to look at the world beyond commercial aviation.

 

[Andy]

If JetBlue started today, they'd get the same reaction as VA. Now, the W2's of those who got hired in the first couple classes are a hell of a lot higher than A320 pilots at NW, UA or USAir.

Yep; still have that feeling about JBLU. They undercut the industry, causing pilot pay rates to collapse in the race to the bottom. This merely subisidizes cheap ticket prices for a public who doesn't give a rat's a$$ about us.
Current JBLU capt with 7 years = $126/hr + 3% 401k match ~ $130/hr.
NW Capt, 7 yrs = $132/hr + 5% tenative B fund ~ $138/hr.
UA Capt, 7 yrs = $125/hr + 9% B +7% C ~ $145/hr
USAir Capt, 7 yrs = $118/hr + 10% B ~ $129/hr

Doesn't look a hell of a lot higher to me. In fact, from reading about the rest of the JBLU benefits package, the legacies compensate higher hands down. Care to match medical benefits?

P.S.--Face it--no one at a legacy wants VA to succeed because it's one more nail in the coffins of some of the legacies. Virgin Atlantic is a well-run airline offering great customer service (something the U.S. Legacies are short on). VA has the potential to lure more customers away from the Legacies and SWA. SWA is a great airline. We'll see how they compare.

Wake up and smell the java. More entrants such as VA are merely going to fuel the race to the bottom of the salary scale. If you want to give great customer service to people who could care less about you and your family, go ahead. Just don't cry when legacies match your ticket prices and put you back on the unemployment line.
I didn't feel sorry for the employees of Indy Air and I won't feel sorry for any other startup who undercuts the employee wage scales to subsidize cheap tickets.

 

[Dumb Pilot]

When I got furloughed, I chose to leave the airline industry rather than whore myself out for foodstamp wages

Seems to me that is exactly what you are going to do when you accept the recall

 

[Green]

Virgin America sounds like a scumbag outfit on par with freedumb and go jets. Pilots can spout all they want about the industry whoring itself out but the fact of the matter is these newhires will be flying narrowbodies for rj wages. I hope the whole thing falls flat on its face and those who happily jumped at a 90/hour left seat job end up on the street. This carrier has not been through bankruptcy, they have twice the start-up captial of jblue yet they offer to pay about 50% less than the going rate. Not much better than a scab outfit IMHO.

An airline should fail or succeed based on its operational merits, NOT slave wages.....

 

[kansas]

Add Don Carty to this whole equation, and things get even worse.

 

[Andy]

Seems to me that is exactly what you are going to do when you accept the recall

You consider $78/hr for A320/737 FO to be whoring yourself out? That's what my pay will be (in 2006 wages) when I return in 2009. Plus another 16% B/C fund.
Beats the hell out of the wages and benefits at Pinnacle where you work. What's that make you?

 

[AA717driver]

Andy--How long have we been around this board?

Long enough that you can't use straight hourly JB payrates to get W2. That's kind of an insult.

Why don't you include the stock those guys at JB got over the past 7 years? How about profit sharing? They will NEED that 16% kicker into the B fund to cover the lost pensions.

You can get as esoteric as you want but the point I was making is that those who took a chance at JB (for whatever reason) in the early days are doing better than the Ch.11 Legacy pilots at this point in time. The fact that you have to split hairs to make your point, makes my point.

Personally, after the treatment I got from ALPA and the failure of the other ALPA carriers to give a $h!t about me and my fellow TWA pilots, I'd be glad to go to work for VA (if I wasn't making more currently).

Why should I alter my career plans to "hold up the bar" for pilots at the struggling Legacies? TC

 

[pipe]

While I agree with you, it is much easier to say this when we have good jobs. If you have been on both sides of the furlough line, then you can spout off like this. Having been in the furlough line, I know what folks are thinking when they have a family to feed...and they do not give a dang about what you and/or I think.

I have been on both sides of this. My furlough is about to enter year five. I wouldn't send Richard Branson a resume if he sent me an application fee.

PIPE

 

[pipe]

Pilots are santimonious hypocrites, too. If JetBlue started today, they'd get the same reaction as VA. Now, the W2's of those who got hired in the first couple classes are a hell of a lot higher than A320 pilots at NW, UA or USAir. A lot of the senior pilots at AA went there when the 17-years-to-parity B scale was in place. Selling your soul for a quick upgrade. That's novel...

So, who's lowering the bar? TC

P.S.--Face it--no one at a legacy wants VA to succeed because it's one more nail in the coffins of some of the legacies. Virgin Atlantic is a well-run airline offering great customer service (something the U.S. Legacies are short on). VA has the potential to lure more customers away from the Legacies and SWA. SWA is a great airline. We'll see how they compare.

What, exactly, do you think put the downward pressure on NW, UA, and US - gravity perhaps?

PIPE

 

[Andy]

Andy--How long have we been around this board?
Long enough that you can't use straight hourly JB payrates to get W2. That's kind of an insult.
Why don't you include the stock those guys at JB got over the past 7 years? How about profit sharing? They will NEED that 16% kicker into the B fund to cover the lost pensions.
You can get as esoteric as you want but the point I was making is that those who took a chance at JB (for whatever reason) in the early days are doing better than the Ch.11 Legacy pilots at this point in time. The fact that you have to split hairs to make your point, makes my point.
Personally, after the treatment I got from ALPA and the failure of the other ALPA carriers to give a $h!t about me and my fellow TWA pilots, I'd be glad to go to work for VA (if I wasn't making more currently).
Why should I alter my career plans to "hold up the bar" for pilots at the struggling Legacies? TC

I've been on this board long enough to know that almost all JB options are under water. I've been on this board long enough to know that the time & 1/2 above 70 is rapidly evaporating.
I've been around aviation long enough to know that when a company starts selling assets, turns orders into options, and delays deliveries, there are problems.
I've been around aviation long enough to recognize that a 25.5% year over year increase in aircraft rent indicates backloaded leases.
I've been around aviation long enough to know that removing seats from an aircraft will increase CASM. And there's not going to be increased RASM from a couple extra inches of legroom.

Now, about this profit sharing thing. Don't you have to be making a profit in order to share the profits?
As far as this point in time, take the snapshot. You're wrong. We'll take another picture in 12 months and see how it looks then. You'll be even more wron.
And as for splitting hairs, you made a fallacious boast that JBLU's uber-senior pilots are making 'a hell of a lot' more than comparable legacies. I don't call it splitting hairs; I'm calling BS on your post.

As far as you and your fellow TWA pilots, news flash. TWA was in deep trouble for a long time. You can't sell off routes and aircraft indefinitely. Eventually the house of cards comes crashing down. All of the signs were there. Didn't TWA's state of the art monochrome monitors running on ancient mainframes (Burroughs) give you a hint that things weren't going well? If TWA had stayed independent, they would've gone chap 7 post-911 just like many other airlines with weak balance sheets. If you're blaming your failure to recognize that TWA was a sinking ship on ALPA, by all means, go ahead; whatever gets you through the night.

Why should you hold up the bar? No reason. Please, bring us closer to sub 6 figure salaries for widebody captains - you can reminisce about the last days of TWA when the senior captains made $80K/yr. Perhaps the top pilot at your next airline will be making $50K/yr.

 

[AA717driver]

What, exactly, do you think put the downward pressure on NW, UA, and US - gravity perhaps?

PIPE

Well, why didn't THEY take a stand? Where's their line in the sand?

It's very easy and convenient to criticize someone else for taking a better job that undercuts the "top" of the industry.

It's a lot harder for those at the top to put what THEY have on the line to stop the lowering of the bar. They'd rather bully some other schmuck out of taking a job and getting a pay raise on the chance that it will help their cause. TC

 

[Andy]

Well, why didn't THEY take a stand? Where's their line in the sand?

It's very easy and convenient to criticize someone else for taking a better job that undercuts the "top" of the industry.

It's a lot harder for those at the top to put what THEY have on the line to stop the lowering of the bar. They'd rather bully some other schmuck out of taking a job and getting a pay raise on the chance that it will help their cause. TC

Puleeze! Why didn't you take a stand at TWA? Your pre-911 wages were abysmal.

They all raised the bar pre-911. Your precious TWA lowered the bar pre-911.

 

[pipe]

Well, why didn't THEY take a stand? Where's their line in the sand?

It's very easy and convenient to criticize someone else for taking a better job that undercuts the "top" of the industry.

It's a lot harder for those at the top to put what THEY have on the line to stop the lowering of the bar. They'd rather bully some other schmuck out of taking a job and getting a pay raise on the chance that it will help their cause. TC

Try this analogy on for size:

Salaries, wages, benefits, etc. were built step by step over a very long period of time - like a brick wall. This was done over the course of many years, many strikes, layoffs, and even closures.

Now there are bricks being systematically removed from the BOTTOM of the wall.

You tell me how the guys at the top stop the collapse.

PIPE

 

[pipe]

Puleeze! Why didn't you take a stand at TWA? Your pre-911 wages were abysmal.

They all raised the bar pre-911. Your precious TWA lowered the bar pre-911.

Andy-

I agree with you 99.9% of the time and your posts are usually very well thought out. This one, however is different.

The TWA folks were trying get their company healthy and out from under Carl Icahn's legacy. They were not subsidizing a business plan that depended on those rates from the day it was conceived. The Icahn years left TWA with such a poor credit rating that they were paying 25-50% more for some aircraft leases than AA or UA, they couldn't hedge fuel, etc., etc., etc. They were trying to undo management damage. TWA was not offering Greyhound fares as a result of the pilot pay rates.

If the JB or VA folks were taking lower pay rates to get rid of their CEO before he killed the company, many of us would view it differently, but that is not the case. As a matter of fact, as I recall, some AA concessions were pretty much a deal to get Carty out the door.

Believe me, had TWA survived to the end of the Karabu agreement (about 2003 as I recall), there was going to be a reckoning over those rates.

The big difference here is that the basic business plan FROM DAY ONE at VA is to provide low fares at the expense of employee compensation. The net result is downward pressure on everyone.

PIPE

 

[AA717driver]

Puleeze! Why didn't you take a stand at TWA? Your pre-911 wages were abysmal.

They all raised the bar pre-911. Your precious TWA lowered the bar pre-911.

Now, you are going where you shouldn't. My final payrate as NB CA was $132/hr. in 2000. In '02 the rate would have been $145. We were inching our way up like pipe said--but without bankrupting the company. You can call it bad but, adjusted for inflation ($132 then would equate to over $146 today), it's better than what you've got now.

Stick with your beloved UAL. If given the choice between JB and UAL, it's a no brainer for me. JB has had one bad year. When was UAL's (or any other legacy) last good year (and don't say '06... )? TC

 

[Andy]

The TWA folks were trying get their company healthy and out from under Carl Icahn's legacy. They were not subsidizing a business plan that depended on those rates from the day it was conceived. The Icahn years left TWA with such a poor credit rating that they were paying 25-50% more for some aircraft leases than AA or UA, they couldn't hedge fuel, etc., etc., etc. They were trying to undo management damage. TWA was not offering Greyhound fares as a result of the pilot pay rates.

If the JB or VA folks were taking lower pay rates to get rid of their CEO before he killed the company, many of us would view it differently, but that is not the case. As a matter of fact, as I recall, some AA concessions were pretty much a deal to get Carty out the door.

Believe me, had TWA survived to the end of the Karabu agreement (about 2003 as I recall), there was going to be a reckoning over those rates.

The big difference here is that the basic business plan FROM DAY ONE at VA is to provide low fares at the expense of employee compensation. The net result is downward pressure on everyone.

PIPE

Pipe,
Valid comment.

 

[Andy]

Now, you are going where you shouldn't. My final payrate as NB CA was $132/hr. in 2000. In '02 the rate would have been $145. We were inching our way up like pipe said--but without bankrupting the company. You can call it bad but, adjusted for inflation ($132 then would equate to over $146 today), it's better than what you've got now.

$132/hr at TWA? Cool. But Kit Darby's archives say otherwise. http://www.jet-jobs.com/samples/salsrveysum.html

 

[skykid]

If JetBlue started today, they'd get the same reaction as VA. Now, the W2's of those who got hired in the first couple classes are a hell of a lot higher than A320 pilots at NW, UA or USAir.

AA717, I think you got one over on us and meant that as a joke. Am I right?

 

[PBRstreetgang]

Skywest guys didn't "leave" for Virgin, at least the ones I know of anyway. They took vacation and/or a leave of absence to attend ground school, and then are going back to Skywest while waiting for the airline to actually start operations (when/if it does...)

Thats funny, the 3 I know personally, are no longer on the senority list. They are betting without a net. Hope it works for them though.
PBR

 

[TWA Dude]

$132/hr at TWA? Cool. But Kit Darby's archives say otherwise.

Not stepping in for TC, who does fine on his own, but that snapshot reflects TWA Contract '98 at the beginning. TC refers to the pay raises at the back end which if memory serves was a 40% increase over five years. Still nothing to write home about but for a company clawing its way back from two bankruptcies not half bad. For comparison, USAirways is still operating under their triple-concessionary contract with no pay raise in sight (until we combine).

 

[AA717driver]

AA717, I think you got one over on us and meant that as a joke. Am I right?

No, I didn't make it as a joke. Actually, I failed to do my homework. Both groups flying 85 hours would make about the same W2.

The DC plans the Ch.11 Legacies have are great--if you have 20 years to work to recover for the lost DB pensions.

According to Andy, JB's stock options are "basically worthless" now. Who knows what it will be like in 10 years--or even next year.

JB is a profitible company. The Legacies are not. Trust me, it's really tough to get a pay raise from a post-Ch.11 company that isn't making money.

So, back to page 1 and my assertion that when it started, JB was looked down upon. Now they have pay parity with the Legacies. VA may well do the same. TC

P.S.--Happy Hanukkah TWAdude!

 

[Captzaahlie]

I've been around aviation long enough to know that when a company starts selling assets, turns orders into options, and delays deliveries, there are problems..

Happy Holidays Andy,

I just wanted to add my 2 cents worth and offer the fact that JB's airbus aircraft that got sold had heavy maintenance coming due. They were sold for a "profit" (look at it like a car lease) and replaced with fresh airplanes......(used a320's bring lot's of cash in Europe as they are not readily available). If fuel prices (every ones big problem) are kicking your companies ass "profit wise" wouldn't you slow down your options/orders too if you could?
It makes sense to slow down the hemorrhaging doesn't it?
I think the 190 orders that got slowed down are not that big a deal..... Obviously these a/c will be used to develop new routes or cover routes during non-peak or seasonal schedules..... Blue already has it's foot in the door has far as start ups go and the people seem to love the product...... I'm sorry you bailed out of the industry, but I still love my job even if I'm just making above industry "regional pay" for flying a late 80's puddle jumping turbo shaker................ Sorry for the positive attitude, but it is xmas and I still think driving airplanes for a living is better than going to work.
Capt Z.

 

[Fins Up]

According to Andy, JB's stock options are "basically worthless" now. Who knows what it will be like in 10 years--or even next year.

Naturally it all depends on strike price versus sale price. Right now there is a difference of about +$4 / share for me. Too bad they're not vested yet. Yeah some guys took in the shorts though. Timing - uncontrollable.

 

[Andy]

According to Andy, JB's stock options are "basically worthless" now. Who knows what it will be like in 10 years--or even next year.

I used the verbage 'almost all.' I should have stated 80%; it would have been more accurate.
JBLU's last 10-Q shows that there are options for 6.4 million shares with a weighted average expiration date of 4.4 years with an intrinsic value of $47.2 million. It also shows that there are options for 25.4 million shares with a weighted average expiration date of 7.6 years with an intrinsic value of $0.

If a large number of these options are ever exercised, it will result in significant share dilution.

 

[Andy]

I just wanted to add my 2 cents worth and offer the fact that JB's airbus aircraft that got sold had heavy maintenance coming due. They were sold for a "profit" (look at it like a car lease) and replaced with fresh airplanes......(used a320's bring lot's of cash in Europe as they are not readily available). If fuel prices (every ones big problem) are kicking your companies ass "profit wise" wouldn't you slow down your options/orders too if you could?

Happy holidays to you too.

I wouldn't call the sale of those aircraft to be a profit; they were sold for more than their depreciated value. Here's from the last 10-Q:

"Through September 2006, we refinanced $123 million of debt associated with five owned Airbus A320 aircraft, which eliminated all financial covenants associated with our debt instruments. In September 2006, we sold two Airbus A320 aircraft for $62 million and repaid $32 million in associated debt, which resulted in a gain of $7 million that is reflected as a reduction to depreciation and amortization expense. We have an agreement to sell three additional Airbus A320 aircraft during the fourth quarter of 2006. "

That's $31 mil per aircraft; JBLU paid more than $50 mil per copy back in 2001 before adding livetv and any other modifications done after delivery.

I thought that the 140,000 sq ft maintenance facility at JFK and the 100,000 sq ft maintenance facility at MCO were so that they could do heavy checks in house. Are the facilities currently operating at capacity? They only opened last year. That's a lot of inhouse maintenance capacity.bbb

As for slowing down options & orders, yes it makes sense if the environment is not profitable. However, ticket prices have firmed/climbed significantly and the environment is getting healthy.

 

[Spectre]

VA is starting out with almost twice as much start capital as Jet Blue, and Branson has plenty more to give. Also, Virgin America will have international flow with Virgin Atlantic. And, Branson is building his own oil refinery.

I think Independence Air started out with 3 times the start up capital as JetBlue. VA's biggest problem is their route structure will be mainly transcons to start. With fuel prices where they are at, this is nothing but a money loser.