Virgin America continues some serious bleeding

[jetflier]

I'll say it again regarding pay, years ago at Pan Am and at NWA a senior pilot could buy a new Cadillac at a months "take home pay". Today that's $50,000 give or take a few thousand. That's a gross pay of $720,000/YEAR! Ask yourself if your pay is anywhere near that? As a profession with all that we have to contend with, security, responsibility, training, customer service, and professionalism, are we getting paid what we are worth to the traveling public ?

( If a surgeon operates on one person/day, they have 360 patients/ year lives in their hands. How many people/day do you have pass through your hands in a year?
Are you worth what a surgeon is paid ? How many lives do you have pass through your hands in a year? How much should you be paid for that responsibility ?

As a profession, we should be compensated for our responsibility, training, and professionalism.

As an airline, we need to take a hard look at how we view our profession. And our responsibility to the traveling public who place their lives in our trained hands.

How much should we be compensated for our expertise.

If given the choice, would you chose the brain surgeon who is paid 7.50/hour or the Brain surgeon who is paid $750/ hour for your brain operation. The answer is simple, you would go with the more expensive surgeon, because your life is in their hands.

 

[clickclickboom]

You and I both know that but unfortunately this industry is all to aware that they can get away with taking some schmuck with 70k in his pocket and turn him into a 16k a year pilot in 300 hrs..

There are bright spots in an otherwise cloudy sky however. These 90 day wonders CANT GET FINANCING and or their wealthy parents are quickly going broke denying junior the chance to work a parent subsidized career

the smaller flight schools are all going or have gone out of business even before the the collapse because of high insurance costs..

The larger ones seem to be better at stealing money and going bankrupt than they are at actually pumping out qualified candidates.

Also you never know the govt may consider minimum rates if planes continue to lawn dart with poorly qualified crews at the controls..

I waould say that a guy with over 5000tt and jet time in his 30/40's is in a good position to see some decent gains in his/her career with the upcoming attrition and lack of new qualified crews

 

[Daytonaflyer]

Aren't the large airlines like Delta, NWA, US, Continental, and SWA a bigger threat to UAL's profits than small carriers like VA, Allegiant, Skybus? Don't they compete directly with you guys on many more routes, thus taking money away from your own company? Aren't pilot wages only cut when a company is not profitable? When has management ever cut pilot wages on a profitable company? I think you guys are directing your anger at the wrong people. If you truly want to insult those with a direct influence on your own salary, you should be insulting your biggest competitors.

 

[bluesideup340]

Aren't the large airlines like Delta, NWA, US, Continental, and SWA a bigger threat to UAL's profits than small carriers like VA, Allegiant, Skybus? Don't they compete directly with you guys on many more routes, thus taking money away from your own company? Aren't pilot wages only cut when a company is not profitable? When has management ever cut pilot wages on a profitable company? I think you guys are directing your anger at the wrong people. If you truly want to insult those with a direct influence on your own salary, you should be insulting your biggest competitors.

Careful this makes too much sense.
Also, pilots hate it when other pilots moves into the left seat as a new hires or within a few months/years. Because that is just not right.

 

[The Victors]

Careful this makes too much sense.
Also, pilots hate it when other pilots moves into the left seat as a new hires or within a few months/years. Because that is just not right.

Oh yes...."Me get to be captain on big shinny jet. Me so excited cause I can get into the cockpit while still wearing my backpack. Me so happy, I'll do this job for freeeee!!"

 

[The Victors]

Aren't the large airlines like Delta, NWA, US, Continental, and SWA a bigger threat to UAL's profits than small carriers like VA, Allegiant, Skybus? Don't they compete directly with you guys on many more routes, thus taking money away from your own company? Aren't pilot wages only cut when a company is not profitable? When has management ever cut pilot wages on a profitable company? I think you guys are directing your anger at the wrong people. If you truly want to insult those with a direct influence on your own salary, you should be insulting your biggest competitors.

The major airlines you speak of do not pay walmart wages to their employees and then use the windfall to go into new markets and subsidize extremely low fares. Allegiant sucks too, but at least they're getting raises and the company isn't trying to use the low wages to screw other companies. You VA losers are just happy to take any wage to go fly a shinny jet. Weak.

 

[The Victors]

ok.....I will say this...(as if anyone cares) if you're furloughed and took this job at VA only to put food on the table, then I can understand. If you quit another job to work at VA, then you're a piece of sh!t and the absolute virus and the plague of this indusrty.

 

[RJidiot]

( If a surgeon operates on one person/day, they have 360 patients/ year lives in their hands. How many people/day do you have pass through your hands in a year?
Are you worth what a surgeon is paid ? How many lives do you have pass through your hands in a year? How much should you be paid for that responsibility ?

That is so laughable. Comparing yourself in education to a doctor. Did I miss the ad for "be a professional doctor in 90 days, (no high school degree required)" ad? After college, that is if you went to college, did you compete with the most academically successful minds at your school for the chance to go on for eight more years of education and residency and then maybe throw in another four years for a fellowship. Basically studying and training until you are at least thirty years old.

As far as liability goes, do you own your own airline business? Are you employing a staff of two dozen? Do you own the terminal you fly out of? Do you own the airplane and equipment needed to operate it? Are you paying tens of thousands of dollars a year in "pilot" malpractice insurance in case your last hard landing caused someone injury?

Just sit in your seat when they tell you its your turn to work. You are so much closer to the bus driver end of liability and financial risk than the high risk/high reward financial end of a doctor.

Rant over.

 

[bluesideup340]

( If a surgeon operates on one person/day, they have 360 patients/ year lives in their hands. How many people/day do you have pass through your hands in a year?
Are you worth what a surgeon is paid ? How many lives do you have pass through your hands in a year? How much should you be paid for that responsibility ?

That is so laughable. Comparing yourself in education to a doctor. Did I miss the ad for "be a professional doctor in 90 days, (no high school degree required)" ad? After college, that is if you went to college, did you compete with the most academically successful minds at your school for the chance to go on for eight more years of education and residency and then maybe throw in another four years for a fellowship. Basically studying and training until you are at least thirty years old.

As far as liability goes, do you own your own airline business? Are you employing a staff of two dozen? Do you own the terminal you fly out of? Do you own the airplane and equipment needed to operate it? Are you paying tens of thousands of dollars a year in "pilot" malpractice insurance in case your last hard landing caused someone injury?

Just sit in your seat when they tell you its your turn to work. You are so much closer to the bus driver end of liability and financial risk than the high risk/high reward financial end of a doctor.

Rant over.

That is the porblem of aviation in a nutshell

Pilot's believe they are as smart as lawyers and doctors,
and lawyers and doctors believe they can fly high performance aircraft.

 

[Kalifornia]

( If a surgeon operates on one person/day, they have 360 patients/ year lives in their hands. How many people/day do you have pass through your hands in a year?
Are you worth what a surgeon is paid ? How many lives do you have pass through your hands in a year? How much should you be paid for that responsibility ?

That is so laughable. Comparing yourself in education to a doctor. Did I miss the ad for "be a professional doctor in 90 days, (no high school degree required)" ad? After college, that is if you went to college, did you compete with the most academically successful minds at your school for the chance to go on for eight more years of education and residency and then maybe throw in another four years for a fellowship. Basically studying and training until you are at least thirty years old.

As far as liability goes, do you own your own airline business? Are you employing a staff of two dozen? Do you own the terminal you fly out of? Do you own the airplane and equipment needed to operate it? Are you paying tens of thousands of dollars a year in "pilot" malpractice insurance in case your last hard landing caused someone injury?

Just sit in your seat when they tell you its your turn to work. You are so much closer to the bus driver end of liability and financial risk than the high risk/high reward financial end of a doctor.

Rant over.

Yep, you're an idiot. The tools on here selling out this profession is easy and low key are probably the ones most likely to crash an airplane. Ignorance and arrogance especially among older pilots who had prior careers somewhere else, made a small fortune, and have no care in the world for a good wage especially if lucky enough to be hired at the right time to obtain a good schedule. I bet the Colgan Captain also thought this was an easy job requiring limited knowledge as he casually joked around up until the global news leading story of a deadly stall. Even congress is smart enough to hold hearings on the low pay, poor work schedules and poor training, but some of our own like yourself will piss on your own chances of being respected.

 

[goodgig]

Yep, you're an idiot. The tools on here selling out this profession is easy and low key are probably the ones most likely to crash an airplane. Ignorance and arrogance especially among older pilots who had prior careers somewhere else, made a small fortune, and have no care in the world for a good wage especially if lucky enough to be hired at the right time to obtain a good schedule. I bet the Colgan Captain also thought this was an easy job requiring limited knowledge as he casually joked around up until the global news leading story of a deadly stall. Even congress is smart enough to hold hearings on the low pay, poor work schedules and poor training, but some of our own like yourself will piss on your own chances of being respected.

I'm with the idiot.

 

[BeachBummer]

( If a surgeon operates on one person/day, they have 360 patients/ year lives in their hands. How many people/day do you have pass through your hands in a year?
Are you worth what a surgeon is paid ? How many lives do you have pass through your hands in a year? How much should you be paid for that responsibility ?

That is so laughable. Comparing yourself in education to a doctor. Did I miss the ad for "be a professional doctor in 90 days, (no high school degree required)" ad? After college, that is if you went to college, did you compete with the most academically successful minds at your school for the chance to go on for eight more years of education and residency and then maybe throw in another four years for a fellowship. Basically studying and training until you are at least thirty years old.

As far as liability goes, do you own your own airline business? Are you employing a staff of two dozen? Do you own the terminal you fly out of? Do you own the airplane and equipment needed to operate it? Are you paying tens of thousands of dollars a year in "pilot" malpractice insurance in case your last hard landing caused someone injury?

Just sit in your seat when they tell you its your turn to work. You are so much closer to the bus driver end of liability and financial risk than the high risk/high reward financial end of a doctor.

Rant over.

OK
1- most doctors don't own the hospital
2- doctor probably doesn't own even the table that will be used. some do but most don't.
3- The flight controls are my operating instruments.
4- If/when I make a mistake and it's critical 100+ people die.
5- Alot of pilots self insure through aopa alpa or what ever.
6- Semi anual checkrides that are carreer critical... doctor?
I could probably go on.


??Would you go under the knife of a surgeon who only had say 100hrs of school, or on the job training? What if you knew that he was on food stamps trying to make it to the next best paying job because it's the only way to make the "experience" to be a "real" doctor?

Are you willing to get into the tub of aluminum throttling along at hundreds of knots in sub zero temperatures with someone who knows just enough.

Those of us with the experience and time in this job deserve better. The profession deserves better.

We are worth as much if not more than doctors. After 6000 flight hours and 12+ years in the cockpit I am worth every penny, and my passengers will get to the destination safely.

You sir are wrong.

 

[RJidiot]

Trust me, I'm all for making the best living I can. All I'm saying is that comparing ourselves specifically to doctors in education and liability is weak at best.

OK
1- most doctors don't own the hospital
2- doctor probably doesn't own even the table that will be used. some do but most don't.
3- The flight controls are my operating instruments.

With the exception of ER and hospitalists, most doctors don't work exclusively at a hospital. The rest of them own, staff, outfit, and insure office space in the buildings around the hospital. Trust me, it ain't cheap. Wait, you do own your own flight kit though. Did you do it through payroll deduction, 25 bones a week?

4- If/when I make a mistake and it's critical 100+ people die.
5- Alot of pilots self insure through aopa alpa or what ever.
6- Semi anual checkrides that are carreer critical... doctor?
I could probably go on.

Same with the metro rail driver. Self insure for what? Does it cost you $50-80K a year to do so? Doctors do have peer review and law suits. Both of those will run the bad ones out of the profession. Are your flights reviewed on a weekly basis by your peers and judgment passed on your decision making and outcome? Would you like to work in an environment where every flight you have people sizing up an angle to sue you personally, not just the company you work for?


??Would you go under the knife of a surgeon who only had say 100hrs of school, or on the job training? What if you knew that he was on food stamps trying to make it to the next best paying job because it's the only way to make the "experience" to be a "real" doctor?


No I wouldn't. However, if you have ever been to a "teaching hospital" with a residency program, you might have been treated by a doc like that. 80 plus hour work weeks, up 36-48 hours at a time working continuously. Anywhere from 4-8 years. All for 35-40k a year. (Heck, we start to tear up if we have to be on duty for 16 hours, and work for 8 of those). Don't worry though, there is an attending doctor (the captain) who is overseeing the residents from their pager. All this to gain experience to finish residency, go into private practice, and become board certified. I could probably go on.


Are you willing to get into the tub of aluminum throttling along at hundreds of knots in sub zero temperatures with someone who knows just enough.

Those of us with the experience and time in this job deserve better. The profession deserves better.

We are worth as much if not more than doctors. After 6000 flight hours and 12+ years in the cockpit I am worth every penny, and my passengers will get to the destination safely.

You sir are wrong.[/QUOTE


Like I said, I'm all for making a better living, but the barriers to entry as a pilot are so low that it is tough. I just find it amusing that we try to compare ourselves to doctors. I do value experience and when I travel, I try to stay on the mainline flights. Thanks for standing up for us, just try to find a closer example than a doc.

P.S. For God's sake man, use spell check. You aren't helping your cause.

 

[BeachBummer]

why spell check when your drinkin! it's a forum you know what i meant.:beer:

 

[lindsaya99]

I waould say that a guy with over 5000tt and jet time in his 30/40's is in a good position to see some decent gains in his/her career with the upcoming attrition and lack of new qualified crews

tease