Violation!

[phishn@daves]

OK, we all do stupid stuff sometimes. well, not me but a "friend".

So, what does it take for someone to get a violation? Is it more a matter of a possible close call, or does it depend on the day?

Thanks

 

[Tug Driver]

loss of seperation because of pilot error will normally result in a violation. be sure that your friend files a NASA report and he should ask your CP if the employer has the ASAP program. Both of those courses of action may prevent his license from being suspended. Remember that in the FAA's eyes you are guilty until proven innocent.

 

[BGSM]

Asap

What is a ASAP program ? If there is a violation how long before you know they are looking into it ? I have made a mistake before and always sweat getting a registered letter in the mail although have never been asked to call the tower etc.

 

[flyf15]

What is a ASAP program ? If there is a violation how long before you know they are looking into it ? I have made a mistake before and always sweat getting a registered letter in the mail although have never been asked to call the tower etc.

ASAP is something that is at some Part 121 carriers and similar to the NASA program.

 

[phishn@daves]

loss of seperation because of pilot error will normally result in a violation. be sure that your friend files a NASA report and he should ask your CP if the employer has the ASAP program. Both of those courses of action may prevent his license from being suspended. Remember that in the FAA's eyes you are guilty until proven innocent.

What are you talking about?

Are you ATC? I was just asking what it actually took to get a violation. Like how far F'd up a situation has to be. Examples would be great type of thing.

I appreciate your NASA and ASAP bullsh!t but that isn't what I was asking.

And by the way, my "friend" thinks you need a sense of humor.

 

[LJPilot]

Tug driver did give an example. Loss of seperation results in a violation. If you busted your altitude, for example, at 3AM by 1000 feet in class E airspace, and noone is around you and there is no traffic conflict the chances are very high that you will not be violated. If, however, you bust that same altitude and there is traffic in the vicinity, you will be hearing from the FAA.

 

[Tug Driver]

no, i am not ATC. things do not have to be extreme in order for the feds to come after you. in fact, you could have done nothing wrong and ATC could of screwed up and they will still come after you. its the damn 91.13 catch all reg.

i don't feel like giving my personal example but you can bet that the higher you are on the career ladder (ATP, Comm pilot, ect..) the harder the FAA will come down on you. They feel the need to set an "example" of your situation.

i guess i didnt understand you origional question. you are just looking for some kind of set parameters that warrants someone to be violated? I think it has to do more with what side of the bed the controller/Fed woke up on...

 

[avbug]

What are you talking about?

Are you ATC? I was just asking what it actually took to get a violation. Like how far F'd up a situation has to be. Examples would be great type of thing.

I appreciate your NASA and ASAP bullsh!t but that isn't what I was asking.

And by the way, my "friend" thinks you need a sense of humor.

You come here, you ask the question, you are the beggar. You ask, you were given. Don't snivel.

What does it take to get a violation? How about considering the meaning of the word? Violation...as in violation of the regulation. You violate the regulation, you may be the subject of enforcement action. Any regulation. Pick one. Violate it. See if you get caught. There's your answer.

Examples of violations? Too low. Too high. Too fast. Too slow. Too close. How close? That's subjective. Read 14 CFR 91.13...it's part of nearly every violation.

Are you trying to figure out what you can get away with?

 

[GEXDriver]

One thing for sure, you don't want to get one. When you recieve the packet for the enforcement action the very first thing on top are the Elements of Evidence. You don't have to read very far to figure out that this is a legal action and that an aviation lawyer would be a good thing.

 

[phishn@daves]

You come here, you ask the question, you are the beggar. You ask, you were given. Don't snivel.

What does it take to get a violation? How about considering the meaning of the word? Violation...as in violation of the regulation. You violate the regulation, you may be the subject of enforcement action. Any regulation. Pick one. Violate it. See if you get caught. There's your answer.

Examples of violations? Too low. Too high. Too fast. Too slow. Too close. How close? That's subjective. Read 14 CFR 91.13...it's part of nearly every violation.

Are you trying to figure out what you can get away with?

Hey Tugdriver,

I didn't mean to be rude to you and I apologize. Was arguing with the wife prior and it's like taking it out on the kids.

Thanks for the replies, I should have specified to begin with that I was just curious as to how sensitve some ATCers are to certain things.

 

[avbug]

PD,

ATC doesn't initiate enforcement action. That's the job of an operations inspector. ATC can certainly refer a matter for enforcement, and the propensity of an inspector to do so is likely tied to his or her temperament on any given day. I've found personally that in most cases, ATC will request a call to discuss it first...though one shoudl always remember that the call IS recorded, and the purpose of that recording ultimately will be to use the call against you if it goes further...so be careful what you say.

Any deviation at all may be considered for enforcement action, but you also need to remember that an ATC specialist has enough on his or her plate to deal with in the day without having to add reports.

If a situation has become serious enough to warrant attention from others (the snitch alarm has been set off due to a proximity issue or altiude violation) then you may be getting the dreaded letter of investigation anyway, because the ATCer won't have a choice. As you can imagine, discreet is best. Another situation that may result in an unwanted return is challenging a control specialist, especially to the point of demanding that the tapes get marked...you may be leaving him or her no choice but to take the next step for self protection.

Perhaps the best approach is to remember that those in ATC are no different than those of us in the cockpit; they have a career, they have professional issues and ethics, and the same dedication to the job...but we each have our own limits, as well as professional limits. Neither you nor I want to be pushed far enough by another pilot to have to refer the matter to the FAA. In the case of the controller, in most cases the controller IS FAA...but doesn't really want to do more than see things roll smoothly, and go home at the end of the shift. Make the controller's job easy, and yours stays easy, too.

Works in law enforcement, just as well, in case you wondered.

 

[Rerouted]

Hey Phish, just in case it was YOU....give me a jingle and I'll put you in touch with someone who sits on the other side of a scope all day. I can tell you this much, many of the ATC guys are under a lot of stress lately. I've heard something like 3 operational errors can bring serious enforcement actions against them from the FAA. To some extent, that's why you see in trail spacing being something they stick to more than ever...and ground delays on days when there seems to be no reason for it. In short, you get them in trouble, you're probably getting in trouble too.

 

[Mr Wu]

There are other bulletin boards on the internet that have real ATC people on there. They answer questions from Professional Pilots all over the World.

 

[Hold West]

Avbug hits most everything on the head. I am an active controller, and I have in the past been the one whose phone rings when you, the pilot, make the dreaded call.

95% or more of all pilot deviations fall under the "no harm, no foul" type of handling. No one really wants to deal with it, especially since the faa will go through everything I did with a fine tooth comb, including stuff not related to the incident in question. So usually just a slightly pointed remark will bring it to the pilot's attention, and for 99% of the pilots out there, that's enough.

ATC doesn't initiate enforcement action. That's the job of an operations inspector. ATC can certainly refer a matter for enforcement, and the propensity of an inspector to do so is likely tied to his or her temperament on any given day. I've found personally that in most cases, ATC will request a call to discuss it first...though one shoudl always remember that the call IS recorded, and the purpose of that recording ultimately will be to use the call against you if it goes further...so be careful what you say.

Avbug hits most everything on the head, except remember the first hurdle is that call to the facility. Not all the phones are recorded (mine wasn't), but some are. I've heard it said in some places never to make that call. I think that's a mistake - my reasoning being the typical reaction of the controllers and supervisors: "He didn't call? Fine, send the whole mess to the FSDO, let them sort it out." If the call is made, frequently all they want to do is make sure you know what you did wrong and understand what to do next time.

Also, if it's a situation where there is no latitude for discretion on the part of ATC, say you got together with another aircraft, then you will know right away that it's going to the FSDO, and you can start a proactive defense, as opposed to waiting for the faa to come for you.

 

[Lrjtcaptain]

I always handle everything over the phone unless there was a loss of seperation because the pilot didn't do what I said. My phraseology is so bad, hence i clip callsigns, i don't see the point of saying cessna or november every damn time I key up that I don't think my paper work would mean a damn after the fAA heard the tapes and said well, I didn't use the correct phraseology so screw the PD. PD are a pain in the ass.. I've filled plenty out on Runway incursions which is a guaranteed write up, but as for a pd where no one got hurt or no loss of sep, expect to call the facility and be informed of what you did wrong. Most controllers don't want to do the write up, if they do then most likely they are having a bad day

 

[T206driver]

A number of years ago I attended one of those FAA safety meetings for the wings program in COS. I really believe these are good for all pilot's. Anyway, there was a controller from the DEN Tracon facility. He unequivically stated that controllers HATE paperwork! If a phone call will do, that is what will happen. There is really no love between the FSDO and ATC.

 

[JDriver]

If you think you might have done something wrong I strongly advise you to fill out a NASA ASRS report. With certian exceptions, this can be a get out of jail free card.

Google NASA ASRS as read up on it.

I got that dreaded radio call one day. I did the paperwork, a investigative board was held, and I was found not guilty. It is your best first line of defense.

 

[avbug]

Whatever you do, just don't ask the Russian about it...

 

[Seadogrun]

One thing that erks me is that controllers(tower) are ready to jump all over someone and violate them, however who knows what happens when they make a mistake.

On a few occasions I received instructions from a Tower/Ground that if I followed someone would have likely died. Once I was instructed to turn base, but I had traffic that was on final in sight that would have been on a collision course. Another time I was cleared/instructed to cross an active runway with traffic on landing roll which if I crossed would have been a collision. On that occasion the controller called the FBO where I parked and appoligized to me and to the best of my knowlege that's as far as it went. However this facility is know to try to crush pilots when they slip up just a little.