Violation Notice!

[PropsForward]

While in your case it is a bit too late....

Rule #1. don't ever call ATC.

 

[A Squared]

First, yer not history. I know full time instructors and corporate pilots with violations and their-fault airplane accidents on their records. They overcame the obstacle.

Talk with the lawyers, sure....but...

Try the informal conference option, a combination of 3, 4, and 5. You've already incriminated yourself with the first letter. Use the conference to ask the FAA inspector if you can have Remedial Training. Jedi Nein

Might be good advice in other cases, but I beleive that I have heard that remedial training is not an option in the case of busting a TFR. could be wrong, but it seems to me that I've heard that the FAA is required to give a suspension if the violation can be sustained, in which case, you don't get anything for cooperating, A vigorous defense or accepting the 30 day suspension are the only realistic options. If you can defend against the violation, you don't get any penalty, if you can't defend against the violation, you *will* get the suspension. Again, this assumes tha I recall correctly, I may be mistaken, but he needs to look into this. It doesn't do any good to throw yourself at the mercy of the FAA, if they are legally bound not to show mercy in the case if TFR busts.

 

[lymanm]

Well thanks for the replies. It's quite surreal to see a violation notice with your name on it right in front of you, it's a truly awful feeling. Although I've been expecting this for 5 months, it still doesn't seem like it's happening. I guess the theme of the day is that of invulnerability deflowered.

My reaction (ie the call & the letter) was based mainly on fear. But beyond that, there was/is a very close knit group in the area where I was flying out of. It's very informal, and I know of many acts in a first and second hand nature that seemed to have confirmed this intimacy. So, that was my mindset when writing that letter - which for discussion purposes here contained what I did to avoid flying into the TFR. For everyone else's benefit, does anyone know how (if?) they would have attempted to contact me had I not called the approach controller? Because I was in a familiar tail # to the tower (who relayed approach's tel #) would they have not called to question the flight school about my identity, and thus implicating me even further?

To those who say this will kill any career aspirations and therefore quit flying: Thank you, but I politely decline your advice. Put yourself in my (evidently naïve) shoes, and honestly say that you would just pack it in without any kind of effort to overcome the situation. I read these boards a few times a day, I've seen others face adversity here and in person, and I'm decidedly determined to not let this incident bring me down, literally or figuratively.

I'm still not quite sure what I'm going to do, but it's clear that I should not continue alone, legally speaking. Thanks for the support, I'll keep you all updated.

 

[GravityHater]

How can they positively link a non-discrete radar code to a specific aircraft??
How can they say beyond a reasonable doubt that it was Mr. Joe Pilot who we saw on radar inside this sua, at this date and time?

Kind of like when police shoots radar at a line of cars 2 miles away, how can he be sure which of the cars (0.2degrees of horizontal vision) that he is targetting.

 

[qmaster3]

How can they positively link a non-discrete radar code to a specific aircraft??

How can they say beyond a reasonable doubt that it was Mr. Joe Pilot who we saw on radar inside this sua, at this date and time?



Kind of like when police shoots radar at a line of cars 2 miles away, how can he be sure which of the cars (0.2degrees of horizontal vision) that he is targetting.

I had the same question. Working with a tracking system comparable to ATC radar systems. I am guessing he gave himself up when he called initially with App control (this is N$%^TG). The transponder (or AIS in our case) makes the track positive, and is VERY accurate. That's why when you get into some shiaat your first step should be to turn the transponder off, and get low. Not really but a fun thought.


A little insight would be good, because I am trying to think of ways to escape if I ever hear Aircraft near??? Your violating a TFR report your tail #.

 

[Metro752]

What happened to Bob Hoover? Did he die? Or are you talking how they took away his tickets? Huh?

 

[350DRIVER]

You need to seek the help of a top notch aviation attorney, first and foremost. The last thing in the world you should do is accept the suspension, would not be smart nor would it be the best possible scenario or outcome. It is highly unlikely that remedial training is an option in the case of busting a TFR as A Squared has already pointed out. You have all these opinions but the important thing is that you take the best course of action to minimize the punishment and career ramifications that this may have on you. Seek legal help asap and let your legal team come up with the best possible avenues to go down. This is not a matter that you want to take lightly especially if you want to pursue a career in this field. You are young, made the mistake, now try to minimize the damage and move on. Chalk this one up as a learning experience, nothing more and nothing less. Do not attempt to settle this matter going at it alone, would be the worse thing that you could do at this point.

1. You are a CFI, you are supposed to not make this mistake. (Yer human! But Remedial Training on CRM ~you vs. student would help or Navigation)

Yeah, the same can be said for 10,000 hour pilots busting altitude assignments. It happens, remedial training on crm would do nothing here even if it was applicable. He realized the mistake and understands exactly why he was violated. No further training is going to make him any safer, better, etc, it happens.. Would remedial training help the guy with 10,000 hours who climbed to FL270 when he was only cleared to FL210?. Don't think so...

I'm still not quite sure what I'm going to do, but it's clear that I should not continue alone, legally speaking.

Absolutely not, it is a no-brainer. Seek the legal help that is available no matter what the cost. The best possible advice would be to invest in a sharp, well known, and accomplished aviation attorney and let him guide you through this until the very end.

I read these boards a few times a day, I've seen others face adversity here and in person, and I'm decidedly determined to not let this incident bring me down, literally or figuratively.

Adversity is something that everyone will face at some point in time. What counts is how well you handle it and what you do to counter the adversity which is usually the make or break you factor.



good luck to you and try to keep your chin up,

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[fastandlow]

What happened to Bob Hoover? Did he die? Or are you talking how they took away his tickets? Huh?

If you plan to be a US civillian pilot, I strongly and respectfully suggest 1-2 hrs research with Google. Search "Bob Hoover FAA medical". Come back and tell us what you learnt about unbridled federal power in a paragraph...

Bob Hoover -

one of the premier pilots in US history (still living). Flew with Chuck Yeager (don't tell me you don't know who Chuck Yeager is also!), was shot down more than once as I recall in Europe. Excaped and STOLE a German plane to return to the Allied side. Has flown jets, acro, airshows, races and about everything in between. Flew air show demos in Rockwell products for decades doing things that impress any respectable aviator... did I leave anything out?

Yep - I think a lot of Bob Hoover.

 

[BD King]

What happened to Bob Hoover? Did he die? Or are you talking how they took away his tickets? Huh?

When the Feds porked him.

 

[Lrjtcaptain]

Well, If you busted the TFR then Id say follow the rules and surrender your tick for 30 days. Yeah, it was an accident, but I know alot of FAR violations are accidents. I know you don't want it on your record but seriously, did you violate the TFR...YES. The only thing you may have to fight it seriously is the fact that you filed a NASA form but i think they have their limitations. Good luck.

 

[jetdriven]

thats the craziest thing I have heard. Dont you want to mitigate it? or just surrender and give up?

 

[Lrjtcaptain]

thats the craziest thing I have heard. Dont you want to mitigate it? or just surrender and give up?

Lets see, did he violate a TFR? YES, is that a violation of an FAR? YES. What is there to mitigate on? People have to be responsible for their actions. If they violate a FAR they need to be held accountable. If not, then why do any of us conform to the rules and regs that make the skies safe.

 

[legaleagle]

No offense meant to the many pilots who have responded, but I am an aviation attorney and a commercially rated pilot. The advice given on this thread thus far is completely wrong from a legal standpoint. Forget the "right thing to do", forget the "moral thing" etc.. There are legal procedures that are to be followed, which the FAA has to follow as well. I know there are inspectors, etc, that will threaten a lot of things, but they can only do so much from a legal standpoint. Follow through with getting an attorney. Do not surrender your certificate. Do not go to the informal conference without counsel. Do not write letters, etc. Hire an aviation attorney, and let him tell you what to do.

In fact, I can give you the name of a firm in L.A., where I live now, that might be able to give you a very good referral in Massachusetts. I lived in Boston for four years and New York for four years.

But, do not listen to non-attorneys on the subject. Go and get one, listen to what he says, and do it. Do not do things on your own out of the supposed goodness of your heart, or a guilty feeling. Use the legal system, as the FAA will sure as hell be using it. I know, I worked on enforcement cases for two years at the FAA during law school.

So, no offense meant to the pilots here who are trying to offer advice, many of them are right, many of them are dead wrong.

Just hire an attorney. I hate to see that you have to spend some money to defend your cause, but they are going to bring an action against you, that has LEGAL ramifications, and follows LEGAL procedures. Thus, you need to hire a LEGAL professional, if you do not have these skills or background on your own.

Hope this helps!

CB

 

[JediNein]

Remedial training on crm would do nothing here even if it was applicable. He realized the mistake and understands exactly why he was violated. No further training is going to make him any safer, better, etc, it happens.. Would remedial training help the guy with 10,000 hours who climbed to FL270 when he was only cleared to FL210?. Don't think so...

Two things here, and the answer is yes to both of them. Just knowing why something happens doesn't mean you know HOW to keep from doing it again. And that goes for the perfect pilots that don't make any mistakes, too.

I have seen CFIs go through the remedial training program.

I have seen ATPs in non-part 121 operations go through the program. In one case the Remedial Program led to an overhaul of the organization's flight program.

I have not seen ATPs in part 121 domestic operations go through the program.

I am also aware of the FAA's Legal Cousel advice of September 2002 that advises a first-time TFR offender should get a 150-240 day suspension.

Try becoming a Remedial Training Program Instructor before you knock the program.

Fly SAFE!
Jedi Nein

 

[350DRIVER]

You may want to re-read my 1st response, I am merely stating that this individual needs to take the best course of action that is currently available to him which surely is not going at this alone. I don't think I "knocked" the program, to each his own I guess. The best advice is for this person to seek legal advice and representation which is also in agreement with what legaleagle has stated as well as the many others on this thread. I am sure many have went through the "remedial program", I don't doubt that and never said I did. Some situations and incidents it would be beneficial by going this route, I just disagree that this person would gain much if anything by doing this and I surely would not go this route if I was in his position. This doesn't even require a second thought, get legal help and let them decide which is the best scenario and plan of action for you.

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[troy]

If you were arrested for murder (whether you did it or not), you would get an attorney. Go get one and let the fun begin.

 

[troy]

Joseph Dunn asks:
Would you advise everyone who must deal with the Federal Government to get an attorney??
Bob Hoover:
Joseph....Indeed so. Absolutely!
http://www.centercomp.com/cgi-bin/dc3/gallery?12

 

[Metro752]

I know who Bob Hoover is, and I know about his medical, I thought maybe the guy was implying he kicked the bucket, and I missed it.

 

[jetdriven]

yes we know he did it, by his own admission. Administrative law does not offer certain legal protections offered to even a murder or thief (they cut deals too) . for one, the 5th amendment against using your own statements against you. Friend of mine used to be a fed, and he put on his NTSB jacket and interviewed pilots at accidents. He then went back to the FSDO and prepared the violation report.

However, his best interest is to minimize the impact on his career. He may very well be able to reduce the enforcement action to where it is dropped or in two years it is no longer a matter of record, as I have done.

We all make mistakes. How many among us here have busted altitude by 300 feet and didnt get caught? how many have taken off with the transponder still on STBY? ever turned to heading 200 instead of 220? ever fly when you shoulda called in sick?

Bottom line, you get what you negotiate and not what you deserve. Spend the ~3-5 grand~ and you will most likely make it back 10,000 times over in career earnings. this is the job we chose and the risk comes with the territory. Fly safe and folow the rules, but be prepared to defend yourself.

I do.

Lets see, did he violate a TFR? YES, is that a violation of an FAR? YES. What is there to mitigate on? People have to be responsible for their actions. If they violate a FAR they need to be held accountable. If not, then why do any of us conform to the rules and regs that make the skies safe.