VFR Over the Top

[cookmg]

Hello.

The flight school where I received my private did not allow their aircraft to be flown VFR over the top. So, needless to say, I never learned much about operating in these conditions. What I am wondering is: Can it be safe to fly Over the top for a VFR only pilot? I am relatively low time, so is operating above a ceiling a bad idea?

I can imagine several situations where operating above the clouds could be very useful (ie. Clearing terrain that has a low and thin layer of clouds above it; Flying above a coatal overcast, etc.) It seems that if there are areas where a pilot could divert to descend VFR than perhaps this operation could be very safe.

So, what do you all thinK? What experiences can you share about this type of opeation? Are there often insurance restrictions on "over the top" flying? Are most flight schools likely to discourage over the top flight?

Thanks so much.

Mike

 

[tcoll777]

Flying VFR on top is no diffrent than flying over a large body of water. There is no visual landmarks on the ground to help you navigate, so you have to be comfortable using some other means of navigation (vor, gps, etc.). The reason most flight schools/instructors discourge this operation is because you run a risk of getting stuck "on top". If you do this could be very dangerous for a non instrument rated pilot.

 

[cookmg]

So . . . under what circumstances might over the top be safe for a VFR only pilot? Do any of you non-instrument rated pilots fly over the top?

Thanks

 

[TXCAP4228]

cloud clearance

"VFR on top" is actually an instrument clearance, just to keep the terms straight. The same situation can happen with VFR only pilots, and before I got my instrument rating, I flew VFR over a broken or overcast layer if I KNEW that at my destination I had clear air. You have to be very careful when you do that.

Remember your cloud clearance requirements. It also helps if you are around a class B terminal area - in class B you have to have one mile vis and remain clear of clouds (the normal cloud clearance requirements don't apply).

After you get some experience under your belt you should be ok, I wouldn't do it as a student. Just be sure to get a good weather briefing before you go (which you do every time you fly anyway so that shouldn't be a problem, right?).

 

[jdog78]

VFR (on top) not recommended!

hey Mike-

If you are a VFR-only private pilot, I definitely would not recommend attempting to fly VFR over a broken or overcast layer. As a pilot flying under visual flight rules, we must maintain visual contact with a ground reference. The reason for this is purely safety. Obviously we can fly straight and level over a deck of clouds, but fuel is limited. If your navs and coms suddenly failed (which can happen!), you can find yourself stuck over an overcast layer with no means of navigation and no way to call someone for help. Oops, looks like fuel is running low. Now you're in a super sticky situation.
Weather is also extremely unpredicatable, so don't assume your weather reports to be 100% correct. Those forecasts are often wrong. Before you know it, SCT becomes BKN and then becomes OVC!! Scary letters, even to an instrument rated pilot. Flying in IMC isn't a piece of cake for everyone so if you're dead set on seeing what "over the top" is all about, brush up on your BAI beforehand. Otherwise, stay "under the top" and you'll be sure to always have visual references to guide you.
My point is, always do the safe thing. Don't be a cowboy pilot and bust regs left and right just because you think you can do it safely and not get caught. The regs are there for our safety, whether we agree with them or not. Flying is a wonderful and dangerous endeavor and as long as you show proper respect to those great forces in the sky, you'll have a long and prosperous flying career.

john

 

[A Squared]

>>>>As a pilot flying under visual flight rules, we must maintain visual contact with a ground reference.

Oh really? Can you point to the regulation which requires this?


Flying over the top has it's risks. The first one to consider as a non-instrument rated pilot is the risk of getting stuck on top. If there's no question that you're flying toward a large area of good weather, that's not a problem. The problem is *knowing* when clear weather is going to be there, and when it might not. The second risk to consider is what if you have an emergency that is going to have you on the ground right now (engine failure, fire, etc) Interestingly, a lot of pilots wouldn't consider this, yet wouldn't have any qualms about flying over mountains or VFR at night. your chances of surviving an engine failure in all three situations are approximately the same.

If you are instrument rated and instrument equipped, the risks of over the top VFR are really no different than the risks of IFR flight in the same equipment. I've flown VFR over the top in twins countless times, it's neither particularly dangerous nor illegal.

regards

 

[cookmg]

Thanks for all of the comments!

I understand what Jdogs concerns are. I guess flying over the top is adding risk to your flight. And, maybe that's unacceptable. But, all of flying is inherently risky. The question is how well can that risk be managed .. . correct?

So, I have some questions: How do the risks of over the top flying differ from all IFR flying? What I mean is . . . if I had an engine failure in the clouds IFR aren't I in the same prediciment that I'd be in if over the top? Aren't there things that I can do to land safely (ie. vectors to nearest airport; always fly at altitudes where I could reach an airport)?

Secondly, if electrical fails, what does an IFR pilot do? Isn't it a similar situation being over the top with an electrical failure?

Finally, how do we ever *know* our destination will be clear? What are your personal standards for ensuring a destination point will not have a ceiling?

Thanks so much for the dialogue.

Mike

 

[jdog78]

There is no regulation that governs where we must be in relation to clouds other than VFR cloud clearances in 91.155. However, the whole "visual" element of VFR is key here. Maintaining ground reference is something that every instructor pounds into his student's head and for a good reason. This is not a question of risk management but rather risk minimization. Can you fly VFR over the top safely as a VFR-only pilot? Regardless of your confidence in yourself (i'm sure you're a great pilot), the answer to that should be "no" until you get your instrument rating. Don't put yourself in a situation where you're wishing you were on the ground rather than in the air.
To answer your first question, yes, that is pretty much the same predicament. But you should never be in that situation in the first place since you are not instrument rated.
If electrical equipment fails, you should still have your engine-driven vacuum gyros so that should not be a problem for an instrument rated pilot but i don't remember getting much partial panel training before my private.
Finally, we never really know for sure that a destination can be clear solely by checking the weather reports. Especially here in florida, weather is often unpredictable. If I were over the top of a broken layer, I would be talking to FlightWatch a lot and checking up on conditions at my destination. If things are not looking good, I would descend through openings in the clouds to maintain ground references.
As i said before, always do the safe thing. Some of the old salts on this board may say hell yeah, go barnstorming if you want, but they are not the ones who will be up in the plane with you. Maybe you shold consider getting your instrument rating since you're so eager to play in the clouds.

john