VFR lost comm entering class B

[Bernoulli]

Here is a lost comm question for all you VFR pilots. If you were based out of a Class B airport and went for a training flight in the local practice area and then lost your comms what would you do? Are you allowed to simply squawk 7600 and barge back into your local class Bravo airspace. You need a clearance to enter class bravo...something you can not get without your radios working... so legally I think you would you need to divert to any other class airport other than class B squaking 7600 and look for the light-gun signals. What do you think?

 

[Vladimir Lenin]

gotta have a clearance to get back in, so I'd head out to a local E or G field, or at least a D

 

[TEXAN AVIATOR]

No clearance, no entry; you need to go elsewhere.

 

[JB74]

Could you possibly land at an uncontrolled field, call atc and ask for a discrete code and a clearance that way?

Maybe someone can reference a reg?

 

[cubegirl7]

make sure you have a handheld radio...

 

[TEXAN AVIATOR]

make sure you have a handheld radio...

You mean think ahead?! You've got to be kidding me!

 

[Alchemy]

No, definitely do not go into class B with lost comms. I would not go into class C or D either. Divert to a convenient uncontrolled field and remain clear of B,C, and D airspace. (Unless of course you want a violation on your record or enjoy watching the FAA rip your pilot's certificate in half....then by all means go ahead).

 

[Lrjtcaptain]

We had a local aircraft today come back lost comm and it pissed me of because he had left 30 minutes earlier, exited the airspace to the east, came back in lost comm, gave him the light gun, but he still flew right over the top of the dropzone for our skydiving who were about 1 minute prior to jumping. The ATIS had been broadcasting a notam for jumpers all day long, this was a instruction flight with an instructor on board who should have known better. There are a million airports that are uncontrolled with in 10 miles of my airport. Why are they so set on landing back at home when it can cause major havoc.

Flexjet 242 make a left 360 to follow a skyhawk who has no clue what is going on. Cheyenne 43Lima, follow the Challanger ahead in the 360. Cherokee44J over fly the airport at or above 2000 feet, report of the airport for a descent into the downwind.

We do plan on things like this but when you have 4 on final and this guy just busts on in, there isn't much you can do. If we didn't give him a steady green he would have gone back over the dropzone. What are my outs then?

Go somewhere else!!!!! Where you don't need a radio!

 

[ThomasR]

Lost Com

Maintain VFR and squawk 7600, listen for voice over nav. aid. Continue broadcasting in event radio is only receiver inop. alerting other traffic of your situation. Try contact on alternate push or alternate VHF radio, FM or UHF. If you were ATP contact when lost com. occures you are still radar contact and able to land via light signal or clearance via nav. radio. If you are outside of ATC continue on to destination as planned.

 

[Jedi_Cheese]

While training at a class C, this is what I learned as a student in event of a radio failure while in the practice area: land at an untowered airport outside the class C. Returning to the class C without prior approval will only result in having to make an uncomfortable call to the tower and possibly getting written up or some other sort of punishment.

If you want to get back into the class C (where the maintence is), call the tower on a phone and work out a plan with them. Usually, they are more than willing to help you out and give you the plan to get back into the class C airport. Then when they give you light signals, they know exactly what is going on, and can plan around your actions. You won't do what happened to Lrjtcaptain.

 

[FracCapt]

Don't just go busting into the airspace. While remaining outside the Class B(or C for that matter), land on a freeway that will take you to the airport, then taxi the rest of the way....can't get violated for busting the airspace if you're on the ground.

 

[ThomasR]

Lost

Stay VFR if you can.

 

[Immelman]

The above make a lot of sense if you're outside of postive controlled airspace. However, one thing I am wondering is what happens if the failure occurs while *in* a class B/C?

You probably have some sort of clearance (I suppose you'll definately have a clearance if transiting class B VFR). My hunch (and as per my IFR training) is that the procedure would be to squawk 7600 and proceed as cleared... but when does this really make sense? If I'm inbound to a class B airport, talking to approach, and have a clearance taking me towards the final approach course, do I just continue and land? That might hose a lot of things up, but would be the seemingly "correct" thing to do. If transiting airspace it seems much more simple to me: continue with the given clearance til clear of the airspace and then land at an uncontrolled.... but the fly in the ointment here is what to do if you're inbound to the primary airport.

 

[Lrjtcaptain]

If you were ATP contact when lost com. occures you are still radar contact and able to land via light signal or clearance via nav. radio. If you are outside of ATC continue on to destination as planned.

Where in my tower can I clear you to land over a Navaid? Sorry, that isn't an option. If outside ATC continue to destination as planned. ----Yeah, if IFR conditions prevail, if not land at an uncontrolled field. I believe thats in 91.185

(b) VFR conditions. If the failure occurs in VFR conditions, or if VFR conditions are encountered after the failure, each pilot shall continue the flight under VFR and land as soon as practicable. ----that means at the nearest airport, not necessarly the destination!

Section 91.131: Operations in Class B airspace.

(a) Operating rules. No person may operate an aircraft within a Class B airspace area except in compliance with Sec. 91.129 and the following rules:
(1) The operator must receive an ATC clearance from the ATC facility having jurisdiction for that area before operating an aircraft in that area.
c) Communications and navigation equipment requirements. Unless otherwise authorized by ATC, no person may operate an aircraft within a Class B airspace area unless that aircraft is equipped with--
(1) For IFR operation. An operable VOR or TACAN receiver; and
(2) For all operations. An operable two-way radio capable of communications with ATC on appropriate frequencies for that Class B airspace area.



---no radio, no clearance, DONT ENTER!

Section 91.130: Operations in Class C airspace.

(c) Communications. Each person operating an aircraft in Class C airspace must meet the following two-way radio communications requirements:
(1) Arrival or through flight. Each person must establish two-way radio communications with the ATC facility (including foreign ATC in the case of foreign airspace designated in the United States) providing air traffic services prior to entering that airspace and thereafter maintain those communications while within that airspace.


---you can't hear them, they can't hear you hence they didn't acknowledge you existed, you are in violation of FAR's if you proceed into a class C and land. Even if you do get a light gun.

Section 91.129: Operations in Class D airspace.

c) Communications. Each person operating an aircraft in Class D airspace must meet the following two-way radio communications requirements:
(1) Arrival or through flight. Each person must establish two-way radio communications with the ATC facility (including foreign ATC in the case of foreign airspace designated in the United States) providing air traffic services prior to entering that airspace and thereafter maintain those communications while within that airspace.

---sounds the same as a Class C to me.


IFR rules are a bit different. But even if your IFR in VMC conditions, your still expected to land as soon as possible. If your in your Citation and the radio goes out 10 minutes after takeoff and you follow 91.185 and its VFR conditions, you are expected to maintain VFR from that point and land as soon as practical. Not climb up to 410 cause you were told to expect it in 10 minutes and continue 1500nm to your destination because you can. Thats if its IMC.

91.185
(b) VFR conditions. If the failure occurs in VFR conditions, or if VFR conditions are encountered after the failure, each pilot shall continue the flight under VFR and land as soon as practicable. ----that means at the nearest airport, not necessarly the destination!

 

[Singlecoil]

I had a total electrical failure in a cherokee once and decided to show the student how you can enter the Class D and land with a light gun. (This was in about 1990, it was an ATA then). After entering the pattern and flying around for 15 minutes rocking our wings with no signal, I took the controls and flew right at the tower at eye level while rocking our wings. They got the message and gave the steady green, but they also sent a truck after us and demanded I call the tower. They were a little peeved. They said I should have flown to an uncontrolled field and called them on the phone first. I explained that I followed the regs and that was that. It looks like the regs have changed now. The way I read it, you can enter class G or E without a radio, but not the others.

I disagree with LrJetCaptain about the meaning of "practicable". It does not mean you have to land at the nearest airport. "Land as soon as possible" would mean that. Practicable is an intentionally vague word to give you and the FAA latitude in shaping its definition to meet the situation.

 

[Alchemy]

After entering the pattern and flying around for 15 minutes rocking our wings with no signal, I took the controls and flew right at the tower at eye level while rocking our wings. They got the message and gave the steady green, but they also sent a truck after us and demanded I call the tower. They were a little peeved.

I would've paid good money to see this!


I had a comm failure on downwind at a class C airport once as a private pilot. I botched the situation badly. It was late at night, I had informed over clnc del. that I wanted to do 3 stop and goes in the pattern. It was approved, and I was cleared for takeoff to make left close traffic. I took off, turned crosswind, turned downwind, and hadn't heard anything for a while. Getting a little nervous, I turned base and started asking tower if I was cleared to land. No response. No light gun. I went ahead and turned final and asked again. No response. No light gun. I went ahead and landed and taxiied off the runway.....I was able to troubleshoot my problem (loose headset jack, duh) on the ground and re-establish communications. Twr controller was furious and told me I made a northwest dc9 go around, and I had to call him after shutdown.

I apologized and groveled like a maggot for forgivness. The controller ended up being cool about it and said he wouldn't write me up. I filled out a nasa form anyway. I sure as hell won't ever land without at a controlled airport without recieving a light gun or verbal clearance first.

 

[FracCapt]

Where in my tower can I clear you to land over a Navaid? Sorry, that isn't an option.......................................................................................

I'm sorry man.....but whenever I see your posts....I can't take them seriously....I mean, when I see something that makes sense, and then see that Avatar....I'm mesmerized....and nothing seems to make sense anymore....

 

[Lrjtcaptain]

I disagree with LrJetCaptain about the meaning of "practicable". It does not mean you have to land at the nearest airport. "Land as soon as possible" would mean that. Practicable is an intentionally vague word to give you and the FAA latitude in shaping its definition to meet the situation.

I agree with your point to an extent, but I guess I didn't make it clear that practicle means, get the plane somewhere safe and away from alot of traffic. Not necessarily the next airport but don't go land an a controlled field because you filed to there or that is where your passangers want to go.

Someone in a kingair vfr could argue that it was practical to continue to his destination and land at some class Bravo. The feds aren't gonna like that.

 

[Bernoulli]

Well, I definitely learned something through this discussion... I always thought you could simply squawk 7600 and fly above the traffic pattern into any towered airport other than a class Bravo and look for the light gun signals. The class Bravo clearance to enter is pretty obvious, but I never knew it was against the FAR's to do it in class C or D airports. I guess the point of squawking 7600 then is to let ATC know you are lost comm when you are already in the airspace prior to landing.

 

[minitour]

The way I read it, you can enter class G or E without a radio, but not the others.

That seems to be the general consensus here, don't enter a B, C, or D, without a radio. I can understand the B, because you need a clearance, but C and D you don't. Since talking to the ATC guys at the Delta I fly out of, they pretty much said if you're squawking 7600, they'll give you the green and vector everyone around you...the theory is they can talk to them, but not you...I'd say land as soon as possibly, if that means a C or D airport, so be it...but unless you're IN the Bravo when you lose radios, land under it, around it, on the other side of it, but not in it.

 

[ThomasR]

Class B

I'm sorry man.....but whenever I see your posts....I can't take them seriously....I mean, when I see something that makes sense, and then see that Avatar....I'm mesmerized....and nothing seems to make sense anymore....

I agree; Why turn a Yes or No answer into a Doctoral thesis? [Just kidding, I all ready know what you are thinking; no need to confirm.]

 

[146guy]

If you were arriving VFR to a Class B airport (already inside the airspace) and then went nordo the regs do provide you the legality to continue to land, but I wouldn't enter the Bravo w/out a clearance.

 

[Lrjtcaptain]

I can understand the B, because you need a clearance, but C and D you don't. Since talking to the ATC guys at the Delta I fly out of, they pretty much said if you're squawking 7600, they'll give you the green and vector everyone around you...the theory is they can talk to them, but not you...I'd say land as soon as possibly, if that means a C or D airport, so be it...but unless you're IN the Bravo when you lose radios, land under it, around it, on the other side of it, but not in it.

You need to aquire two way radio communication to enter B, C, and D. Bravo's you need a "Cleared into the Bravo" if your VFR but if you loose com outside a B,C,or D why would you enter? Keep in mind alot of D's don't have radar and if you enter the airspace without at least two way radio communications with the controller then you shouldn't be there. Yeah, my tower has radar, and I can see people who shouldn't be there when they are but don't go on the notion that well, I lost my comms, im enroute to ABC airport, its controlled, they will vector planes out of the way. Do you realize how big of a pain in the ass that is? All your doing is taking a minor situation (Radio Failure) and making it bigger but entering a controlled airport blindly. Over flying looking for a light gun, which takes the local controller away from the picture to figure out what the hell is going on and then to resequence everyone for you. If your ever 6 miles out, loose radio and decide to come into my airport because that is where you enroute to, I will resequence everyone, give you a green gun, and then file a report with the FSDO. If your IFR enroute in IFR conds, thats a different story. But VFR with all the uncontrolled airports out there there is no excuse.

 

[minitour]

....Yeah, my tower has radar, and I can see people who shouldn't be there when they are but don't go on the notion that well, I lost my comms, im enroute to ABC airport, its controlled, they will vector planes out of the way. Do you realize how big of a pain in the ass that is? All your doing is taking a minor situation (Radio Failure) and making it bigger but entering a controlled airport blindly.....If your ever 6 miles out, loose radio and decide to come into my airport because that is where you enroute to, I will resequence everyone, give you a green gun, and then file a report with the FSDO. If your IFR enroute in IFR conds, thats a different story. But VFR with all the uncontrolled airports out there there is no excuse.

Far 91.3(b) [Responsibility and Authority of the Pilot In Command]
In an in-flight emergency requiring immediate action, the pilot incommand may deviate from any rule of this part ot the extent required to meet that emergency. (also 91.129(d)(2))

After reviewing the B and C airspace "rules", I wouldn't want to go there unless I was already in the airspace, and if I was in the airspace, I'd probably try to get out, under, or around it before I landed. If I needed to though, I'd land under 91.3(b) (i.e. running low on fuel, icing, etc)

Now I do agree with you, flying into a B, C, or D with no comms isn't something I'd TRY to do, but if you've got an emergency...and personally, I feel that losing radios is an emergency...some people say its not, but if I can't talk to you, I don't assume that you can see me (another plane).

Probably going to be some paperwork involved, but I'd rather have 8-10 hours of paperwork than end up in a pile of aluminum somewhere in BFE because I couldn't land in B, C, or D airspace. (again, B or C wouldn't be my FIRST choice if I could avoid it, but that option is there) and I do understand that its a pain in the ass to vector traffic around a 152 doing 60 knots on a 5 mile final, and if I decide to go into ATC its probably something that I'll really hate to have to do. For now, I'm on the end of the stick flying a gas tank with wings at X,000 feet with no radio. My concern isn't the Lear coming out of 10,000 feet that wants to land on x runway and wants the clearance two minutes ago. My concern is getting on the ground and trying to figure out later what went wrong and hopefully fixing it. So, I guess I'll have to appologise in advance, but I'll squawk 7600 and go where I can.

God willing, these situations are far and few between for all of us.

 

[Lrjtcaptain]

Your right, an inflight emergency says the pilot can deviate from any FAR's as need be, however a lost comm in VFR conditions is not by any means an emergency. A million planes out there fly with no radio all day long in and out of the uncontrolled fields.

Lets examine one crucial element here. If an airport has a tower, it must be semi busy traffic to warrant the existince of a tower, if it doesn't, then the traffic volume is low enough to operate an aircraft without a radio.

If you lost comms and really felt the need to land at a B,C, or D, so be it, the controllers will do what we are supposed to do, and in all reality, if I have a consistent stream of traffic, im flashing a red light at you and I'll get back to you when I can. Don't expect to get a green light right away, and some places, dont expect to get it period. If you come up on a 7700 xpdr code, dont even wait for the gun, just land....according the FARS a pilot can deviate from any reg in emergency. The tower is gonna come meet you at the plane, I've done it before, and they are gonna wanna know why you had an emergency, cause the fire trucks will be out on the runway with you and there is gonna be a pile of paper work. Then FSDO is gonna wonder why you declared an emergency for lost comms in VFR and it would be intresting from that point on.

 

[ThomasR]

Lost Comm

This is one of those cases where a simply stated situation gains aggravation by others interjecting extended circumstances to the scenario that were not originally stated. The story begins to change until it becomes a cascade of "I'm right and your wrong" innuendo. It is a worthless cause. Remanicent of one attempting to compete for post entry leadership.
Over and Out.

 

[Lrjtcaptain]

This is one of those cases where a simply stated situation gains aggravation by others interjecting extended circumstances to the scenario that were not originally stated. The story begins to change until it becomes a cascade of "I'm right and your wrong" innuendo. It is a worthless cause. Remanicent of one attempting to compete for post entry leadership.
Over and Out.

AND HOW DO YOU REALLY FEEL?

 

[ThomasR]

Lost Com

AND HOW DO YOU REALLY FEEL?

"Keep it simple, stupid"!

Not you, of course, you are quite knowedgable being in ATC and all. But your message would have much greater impact and benefit if you'd make a series of points rather than jam the page with endless bits of information aimed at every other entry on the topic. The posts don't dissappear you can go back and make your point one at a time. Why confuse people? Just my opinion.

 

[mattpilot]

I'll have to agree with Lrjtcaptain - Lost Radio is by no means an emergency. If a radio is not required to be in the aircraft to begin with (VFR min equipment list), how can it be an emergency if yours suddenly went out?

Personally i'd never return to my Class D airport after radio failure. KRVS has some 750 operations a day. However, I can't really figure out why the local school (who accounts for 75% of the operations) tells its students to return to the airport if the radio is out.

@minitour

sorry, but that sounds kinda egocentric. If a radio failure in VMC is your only 'emergency', and what you wrote is your plan of action, then you got some issues. By flying to a controlled airport your creating a lot more hazards than you think - mostly for others. In most of the US you can find an uncontrolled airport every 10 min. Land at one of those, call the tower (you can obtain any number by calling 1800WXBRIEF) and work out a plan of action with them.