Value of BE-90 right seat time?

[iflyjets4food]

Here's the scenario:

I was a co-pilot for a 135 outfit for about a year. This outfit operated King Air 90s and Cessna 310s. They operated them single pilot under the autopilot exemption. Some companies that we transported REQUIRED two pilots, but since the regulations didn't, I was a glorified seat warmer. We operated the airplane as a two pilot crew, however, in the same manner that we operated a part 91 King Air 350. The time in the right seat of the 350 was loggable since I was qualified as SIC, and the airplane had seating for more than 9. The time in the right seat of the 90 is not loggable though. I kept track of the time in the 90's, and I'm wondering what value 400 hours of right seat King Air 90 time would be and how I would show the value to future employers.

 

[moving2vegas]

Was the "requirement" for a two pilot crew an ops spec requirement or did the client simply ask for two pilots?

 

[falcon20driver]

You could log the 91 legs as PIC simulated instrument time if you were the flying pilot, with the actual PIC as your safety pilot.

 

[iflyjets4food]

Was the "requirement" for a two pilot crew an ops spec requirement or did the client simply ask for two pilots?

The "requirement" was not ops specs related, it was, to simplify things, the client's request. We had many clients request it. That was why I had a job, but it was not our requirement. In response to the other reply, I did log the part 91 legs because I was always given the opportunity to fly those legs, from the left seat in fact.

 

[iflyjets4food]

I'm not trying to figure out a way to log the co-pilot time. It's solid that I can't. I'm just trying to figure out a way to show that this time has some value on a resume or in an interview.

 

[Diesel]

It has no value on a resume. You can bring it up in an interview but I wouldn't other than the fact that you spent some "time learning a b90" or recieving instruction in a B90

 

[falcon20driver]

I'm not trying to figure out a way to log the co-pilot time. It's solid that I can't. I'm just trying to figure out a way to show that this time has some value on a resume or in an interview.

Like I posted earlier, hood time. You can log PIC simulated instrument time if you're rated in the aircraft and you have a safety pilot, in your case that would be the actual PIC of the flight, and the more instrument time you have the more competitive your resume will be.

 

[NoPax]

Did you have an 8410 SIC for the 90, or am I missing something?

If you don't, then you can't log it with paying passengers on board. I'd maybe argue that it may be worth something to the insurance company.

On the Job CRM training ? It couldn't hurt to have it.

If two people show up for an interview, to fill a position for a C90 pilot, and one has 400 hours 'sic' experience, and the other doesn't, I know who I'd hire..of course after making sure he didn't pay for it, or take short cuts to get to the interview.

Recently I've been lucky enough to ride along on a CJ1. I put the experience in my log book, but don't log PIC turbine time, even though I may be manipulating the controls - I haven't received any formal training and haven't been given the signoffs for it, but I do have the books and I have studied them.

 

[falcon20driver]

You have to be typed in the little Citation Jet to log PIC, you don't it the little King Air.

 

[puddlejumper]

Some companies that we transported REQUIRED two pilots, but since the regulations didn't, I was a glorified seat warmer. We operated the airplane as a two pilot crew, however, in the same manner that we operated a part 91 King Air 350.

You may want to review the 135 regulations regarding a non-crewmember operating aircraft controls. That's a no-no unless you were participating in company and FAA approved training. It's a shame, since you must have had some sort of training in the 350, that the company didn't get their POI to approve a SIC training program for 135 ops. We're trying to get that set at our company now, since we have a 90 and a 200 and if the weather is below takeoff minimums or an autopilot acts up, we can't fly them single pilot.

The right seat is a passenger seat really in a part 135 single pilot King Air. Even if you're being paid to be there, you should probably be on the manifest as a passenger and comply with TSA pax screening requirements. By the way, I'm not busting on you. I've ridden along several times on 135 flights per client requests. But really, I was just a passenger, according to the FAA. It's just something to think about.

 

[iflyjets4food]

You may want to review the 135 regulations regarding a non-crewmember operating aircraft controls. That's a no-no unless you were participating in company and FAA approved training. It's a shame, since you must have had some sort of training in the 350, that the company didn't get their POI to approve a SIC training program for 135 ops. We're trying to get that set at our company now, since we have a 90 and a 200 and if the weather is below takeoff minimums or an autopilot acts up, we can't fly them single pilot.

The right seat is a passenger seat really in a part 135 single pilot King Air. Even if you're being paid to be there, you should probably be on the manifest as a passenger and comply with TSA pax screening requirements. By the way, I'm not busting on you. I've ridden along several times on 135 flights per client requests. But really, I was just a passenger, according to the FAA. It's just something to think about.

I was just a passenger as it applied to the FAA. I was PNF on 135 legs and PF on 91 legs. The 350 was a part 91 airplane.

 

[puddlejumper]

I was just a passenger as it applied to the FAA. I was PNF on 135 legs and PF on 91 legs. The 350 was a part 91 airplane.

Were you a passenger or PNF? You're counterdicting yourself. There is no PNF on a single pilot 135 flight, technically. If the PNF is touching anything, like the radios, flaps or gear, he/she is technically, illegally, operating the aircraft. Anyway, in real life, lots of clients ask for a second pilot on 135 charter flights. Lots of operators pay pilots to sit there and lots of pilots act as PNF on single pilot flights. It's just one of those things. I'm sure some operators have SIC training and approval for their single pilot aircraft. Just because it's technically not legal for a non-required crewmember to operate controls in the plane, doesn't mean it doesn't happen everyday. Not that I ever did anything like that. I would never...

 

[TheGreatChecko]

Like I posted earlier, hood time. You can log PIC simulated instrument time if you're rated in the aircraft and you have a safety pilot, in your case that would be the actual PIC of the flight, and the more instrument time you have the more competitive your resume will be.

You have to be careful in logging that. Someone actually needs to be under the hood and the other is the PIC. The person under the hood can log PIC under the "manipulating the flight controls" part of the reg, the other logs it as PIC, the person ultimately responsible for the safety of the flight. Its the only way it works.

Also, I don't know too much about the regs, but is it even legal to do that on a Part 135 flight?

 

[Herman]

Since a BE-90 is below 12,500 lbs and you do not require a type you can log the flight time, where you were the sole manipulator of the flight controls as long as you hold a multi engine rating. In addition, if you were flying under part 135 the ATP holding PIC could instruct you while flying, allowing you to lot flight time with or without CFI.

This is only my interpretation on what flight time is logable and which is not, but I did interpret this through FARs and FSDO interpretation of FARs. I would not trust anyone’s answer on this board, nor any interpretation of your company or friends, but instead just ask your FSDO FAA representative for “the real answer”.

Keep in mind though, even though something might be “legal”, does not mean that other employers count anything as valid time, which they would consider; but what you put into your logbook is your choice, and as long as you can explain what you were doing….just be prepared to answer questions if asked.

 

[airspeedsalive]

I think to log the time as PIC you'd need a high altitude sign-off as well.

 

[onthebeach]

>>I think to log the time as PIC you'd need a high altitude sign-off as well.<<

No. The endorsement is required to ACT as PIC, not to log PIC time. The latter only requires that you hold at least a Private Pilot certificate in Multi-Engine Land Airplanes, and, if in IMC, an Instrument Rating.

 

[Buckeye]

iflyjets4food, Answering your original question, I would chalk it up to experience and tell the interviewers it helped learning CRM, and functioning in a two crew environment. I would also add the different things you liked, disliked, and learned from flying with different Capt's. I am sorry I interrupted the typical who knows best and whom is smarter then who and the regs say.... I am glad I am not one of those guys.

imp:

 

[airspeedsalive]

>>I think to log the time as PIC you'd need a high altitude sign-off as well.<<

No. The endorsement is required to ACT as PIC, not to log PIC time. The latter only requires that you hold at least a Private Pilot certificate in Multi-Engine Land Airplanes, and, if in IMC, an Instrument Rating.

Huh. That's interesting. I recently just started doing a part-time seat warmer deal in King Air. I assumed that on the dead legs I could log PIC time, but I'd need to wait until I had a high altitude endorement.

I'll check into that when I get home. Does everyone else agree with onthebeach?

Thanks

 

[falcon20driver]

Major difference between ACTING and LOGGING pilot in command time, it's like night and day.

Look it up in the regs, only reqs. to log PIC are rated in the type of ship.
Now if you're going to actually be the PIC than you will need the thin air signoff. Realistically though, I don't think anyone actually ever get the signoff, just a jet or turboprop type rating and you get sent on your way, so maybe that covers it.

 

[Bushhatesyou]

The time still counts for total time,multi,cross country, ect. (if you have taken a sic 135 check ride that is.)

 

[puddlejumper]

Huh. That's interesting. I recently just started doing a part-time seat warmer deal in King Air. I assumed that on the dead legs I could log PIC time, but I'd need to wait until I had a high altitude endorement.

I'll check into that when I get home. Does everyone else agree with onthebeach?

Thanks

I agree with onthebeach in that you do not need the high altitude endorsement to log PIC, only to ACT as PIC. I disagree, however, on his/her comment about needing to be instrument rated to log PIC in IMC. This is a condition of flight, like night/day. If you are the sole manipulator, you can log the time in an aircraft in which you are rated. Regardless of required endorsements, currencies or flight conditions. Category/class pertains to being rated in an aircraft. Instrument rated applies to an operational rating on one's certificate. (that isn't coming through very clearly, maybe someone can explain it better)

Here's an example: You're out of BFR. You go and fly with a CFI. You are the sole manipulator for the flight review. You log it all as PIC, even though you can not act as PIC until you've completed the review. Let's say the CFI gets a local IFR clearance and you go fly around in the clouds. Log it is as PIC, actual instrument. You're rated in the airplane, just not the type of operation you are conducting. Just because you are current at night, and fly at night with a CFI, or a safety pilot, one still should log it as PIC, as long as the CFI/safety pilot is current and rated for the type of operation and agrees to ACT as the PIC.

Edit(added) If you are a non-instrument rated ASEL Pvt pilot training for the instrument rating, you log the training as PIC, even if you're on an IFR flight plan. In IMC, you would continue logging PIC and actual instrument. Say you're an ASEL Pvt getting a AMEL rating. The time receiving instruction is not PIC, since you're not rated in the aircraft yet. If your MEI signs you off to solo it and you go fly around as the "sole occupant" I believe you would log that as PIC time. Although, the regs may say that only a student pilot may log sole occupant time as PIC, I'll have to check.(end)

Clear as mud huh?

 

[airspeedsalive]

Puddlejumper.....actually that helped quite a bit.
Thanks

 

[iflyjets4food]

iflyjets4food, Answering your original question, I would chalk it up to experience and tell the interviewers it helped learning CRM, and functioning in a two crew environment. I would also add the different things you liked, disliked, and learned from flying with different Capt's. I am sorry I interrupted the typical who knows best and whom is smarter then who and the regs say.... I am glad I am not one of those guys.

imp:

Thanks. That was all I was really looking for.

 

[puddlejumper]

iflyjets4food, Answering your original question, I would chalk it up to experience and tell the interviewers it helped learning CRM, and functioning in a two crew environment. I would also add the different things you liked, disliked, and learned from flying with different Capt's. I am sorry I interrupted the typical who knows best and whom is smarter then who and the regs say.... I am glad I am not one of those guys.

imp:

Try not to incriminate yourself in the interview by admitting that you were operating the aircraft illegally from the right seat on a 135 leg. You could get the other pilot in trouble as well as the operator, for using unauthorized, untrained crewmembers in an on-demand air carrier operation.

In my computer logbook, I've got a custom column: non-req'd SIC. It doesn't add to any other of the flight time totals, but I've got where we went, who I flew with and other remarks. An interview panel may notice stuff like that.

By the way, the added comments were meant to clear up some common misconceptions of the regs regarding the logging of flight time and the differences between ACTING and LOGGING pilot in command time. Hopefully, we've all gotten a little something from the thread.

 

[iflyjets4food]

In my computer logbook, I've got a custom column: non-req'd SIC. It doesn't add to any other of the flight time totals, but I've got where we went, who I flew with and other remarks. An interview panel may notice stuff like that.

By the way, the added comments were meant to clear up some common misconceptions of the regs regarding the logging of flight time and the differences between ACTING and LOGGING pilot in command time. Hopefully, we've all gotten a little something from the thread.

I appreciate the length you have gone to in order to help me out. I've learned a little bit. I will probably do as you have done and just add a column in my computer log for non-required SIC. That will at least show something. I just always felt like it was great experience and should count for something. I got started doing it when I had like 280TT, with no real other experience outside of my ratings. It was excellent experience learning about icing, thunderstorms, turbine operations, and just basic flying of a larger airplane than I had seen before. The guys I flew with had a tremendously diverse background which allowed me to learn a whole bunch, even if I never ran the radios.