Value of a 737 type??

[tredding@swa]

OK,

1st of all... yes I MUST have too much time on my hands, I'll admit that!

2nd - not picking on anyone... so I will leave the names out (figure it out on your own time)...

3rd - I know that everyone's situation is different, some have been under the prior "stop-loss" and other factors (economic, etc.) are also at play... so now that the disclaimer is set, here we go!

MANY of you (far too many on some threads... I think a smell a dead, bloating horse around here somewhere ) have debated the issues surrounding why ANYone would spend $$$ to get a 737 type rating in order to become a SWA pilot. THIS IS NOT ANOTHER PLACE FOR YOU TO WHINE ABOUT PFT!!!!!!!

Well, yes, now that we have that 20/15 vision in our rear-view mirror (concerning the plight of our beloved industry) we COULD go on, and on , and ON about being in the Pool @ SWA is a better place than ALMOST anywhere in the airline biz today.... but let's not go there either.

Yea, yea - I hear ya - GET TO THE POINT!?

Upon looking at my position in the "unoffocial" pool list here (thanks again W8N!! ) I realized that my current #89 position is far above some who interviewed MONTHS before I did! So I looked up and down the list and found a HUGE difference between those who interviewed WITH a 737 type and those who interviewed WITHOUT the type.

"Gee, Tred - what does that mean??"

Well, glad you asked.... for example (read disclaimer above before you flame me) someone who interviewed in June 2001 and did not type until March 2002 is 119 places BELOW me in the pool.....( I interviewed Jan '02 w/ a 737 type) SO, if/when classes start up, AND they run 20 wet souls per class, my fellow poolie who interviewed w/o a type will be 6 classes behind me! (not including the "real" vs. unofficial pool list factoring)

If you look at the recently passed contract extension those who climb out of the pool soon will be blessed with lots of stock options upon starting class. This grant is on a DECLINING scale with later hire dates getting SMALLER grants. This will mean $$$ at some point in the future. My senority number will be lower than those who will start after me, but interviewed BEFORE me without being typed. Therefore, I will upgrade sooner, be off probation sooner, etc., etc.!

I am not going to attempt to put all of this into an actual $ figure, but I think we can all see the value in believing in yourself, making an investment in your future and having the spirit and attitude that drives some people to take a CHANCE!!

On a post WAY back whenever, I put my $.02 in on the whole SWA/PFT dead horse thread.... I broke down the actual cost of my type rating (all expenses included) as $8200. Additionally, IF I get out of the pool before my next birthday, I will have 17 years with SWA. That is 6205 days, OR $1.33 per day for my 737 type.
About the same as buying a cup of coffee at Starbucks!?!?

I believe that the difference in pay and stock options, upgrading sooner, etc. will more than offset my 737 type costs.

For those of you who want to be part of the SWA culture, I highly recommend that you show up to your interview WITH a B-737 type in your pocket. IF you really,really,really,really,REALLY believe that you are what it takes to be part of the team and don't want to work for just ANY airline.... then take a chance, believe in your dream and GO FOR IT!!

For those of you who don't have a burning desire to be @ SWA that is also fine, I have no desire to be a Burger King manager, a police officer, a doctor, an attorney, etc., etc., but I respect those who are because it is your life - do with it what you choose - but for God's sake, be happy, life is short!!

Regards - Tred

 

[King Nothing]

I think you have to look at the economics of the situation. Granted, going into the interview is better than not simply because 1. You've showed them you're really interested in working for them and it shows, and 2. You will obviously be put to the head of the line for a class date. Clearly you'll have a better senority number by getting a class date vs. the individual who didn't have a type at the interview.

By economics I mean -- some individuals may need to drum up the financing to get the type and without having a nod from SWA to get the type it doesn't put a spark under ones butt. For some it's a gamble and would rather wait until they have a sure thing. Others, such as military pilots, get the financing through the GI bill and it's just a matter of getting the scheduling worked out. This option is one in which you could have the type prior to the interview and hence the better seniority number.

Bare in mind that getting a 737 type rating, without working for an airline, lets say a 135 operator or corporate flight department, tells most D.O.'s and flight department managers what your true intention is...wishing to work for Southwest. I know of a few folks who have been excluded from jobs because of this. So for some they'd just as well wait for Southwest to give them the nod to get the type.

I think it boils down to ones specific situation.

KN

 

[Seeniner]

I, too, must have too much time on my hands...I read this post and am now replying.

I would argue that, in general, military folks are in a better position to buy the 737 type before interviewing than civilian folks. Why? GI Bill (in many cases), and they make more money (in many cases).

$1.33 per day sure isn't much to pay, even for coffee. Before you tred to the bank happy because you paid in early and started 119 positions ahead of someone who delayed paying (for whatever reason), you might want to see how old those pilots are. They may have 25 years to give. They also may have a post somewhere spouting the virtues of going the civilian route vs. the military route arguing they can (could) get hired at a much younger age, and therefore make more money than military folks could over a career. Like King Nothing said, it depends on one's situation. Like the King (Elvis) said, "A little less conversation, a little more action."

In this day and age, this is all meaningless babble that. We need the economy to turn around.

 

[jll]

737 type funding

I got my 737 type in May. There were a total of 7 in my class, six were military. Most using GI bill. I was not as wise in my younger years to sign up, but will get a small tax break. The one civ in the class was a furloughed fella which had the state pay his way via unemployment bennies. Something the unemployed may want to investigate.

 

[HOUMAN]

This debate was better back in 2000, when all the airlines were hiring. Now it is kind of a moot point.

By the way, if you are thinking you were turned down by an airline just because you have a 737 type, you are fooling yourself. I know for a fact that you can get hired at FedEx, jetBlue and Alaska with a "2 week" type rating.

 

[SpeedRacer]

Dork!!

I am GLAD I don't have to work with DORKS like you, bragging about a "projected" start date......AND happy to rub your fellow classmate's noses in the dirt all because of your stupid 73 type.......

This will mean $$$ at some point in the future. My senority number will be lower than those who will start after me, but interviewed BEFORE me without being typed. Therefore, I will upgrade sooner, be off probation sooner, etc., etc.!

and of course you said....

SO, if/when classes start up, AND they run 20 wet souls per class, my fellow poolie who interviewed w/o a type will be 6 classes behind me!

I sure hope your fellow "poolies' give you the well deserved blanket party IF/when you start at SWA........

You deserved to get "flamed" on this one.......

Enjoy your StarBucks!!........

 

[King Nothing]

HOUMAN, if your comment "By the way, if you are thinking you were turned down by an airline just because you have a 737 type, you are fooling yourself." was intended for my reply I believe I steered you in the wrong direction. Corporate Flight Departments and 135 charter companies are discriminating, not the airlines.

SpeedRacer, I believe the post was to debate the timing of when one get the type, before the interview or after when told by SWA and what the consequences are. I don't think we are trying to rub each others face in the dirt, much like I'd like to do with yours.

KN

 

[JayhawkDude]

No Code Red

I sure hope your fellow "poolies' give you the well deserved blanket party IF/when you start at SWA........

We poolies are in this together. Period.

 

[tredding@swa]

speedy shows his true colors...

The point, as correctly made by King Nothing, was to explain the value of going to an SWA interview with type in hand for those who are "on the fence" concerning the issue.

As JayhawkDude also points out, we are all in this together... and I have NEVER, nor would I EVER, make a disparaging remark towards a fellow poolie or another employee when we are ALL (finally)on property @ SWA.

However Speedy, it is rather nice of you to include your real name in the Subject line of your post... perhaps you should continue to put it in all future posts so we can easily identify your responses!?

It must feel good to be so angry and negative, taking parts of my post out of context and choosing to turn it into something it was not intended to be.... my teenager has a term that fits perfectly here..... "it must suck to be you"....

Have a great day everyone! Tred

 

[ivauir]

it depends ....

In my case not interviewing with the type will mean a great deal. If my pool date had been 6 Septmepter I would already be an employee @ SWA. So I figure it will cost me something on the order of 1 year of senority. But there are MANY people who interview with the type and don't get hired. It will always be a little bit of a gamble no matter what you choose. When the economy is good and lots of people are hiring going to the interview without the type is probably the safe/conservative bet ... but then if you roll 9-11...

Get the type pre interview if:
- you are a fanatic about working for SWA
- you are prepared to face disappointment and will interview as many times as it takes
- you have EVERYTHING else in order
ie
- a great resume (1500 PIC turbine +)
- a great suit
- interview prep
- straight teeth and otherwise good personal appearance (seriously I'd pay for dental work before the type, you'll look better, be more confident and interview better)

I would seriously consider a 4 year degree before the type too, even though they hire without a degree it is not that common and those guys tend to have awesum aviation credentials.

In short: I wish I'd interviewed with the type (in hindsight), but I would have been even more nervous at the interview knowing I'd already paid 7+ grand and that money was wasted if i didn't get hired. Ultimatly, everyone has to go with their own gut.

PS Speed racer, we dorks are glad you don't work with us too!

 

[SpeedRacer]

Ha, Ha, Ha

"tredding"

Enjoy drinking your Starbucks while you wait for SWA - sounds like it will be a while...

I'll enjoy reading your ridiculous posts, keep em' coming, I enjoy hearing how you try to justify your PFT job..........."Only a buck thirty three a day".....incredible........

P.S.....Let's not start comparing paychecks, schedules or retirements.....I don't want you guys to get more upset...

Have fun at your blanket party boys!

 

[FastCargo]

The type...

My .02,

I did the type rating when I was still on active duty, and footed the whole cost myself (wasn't eligible for the GI Bill). I got the interview and got hired...by SWA and another company. Both companies knew I had the type, and didn't have a problem with it.
As you can see, I didn't go with SWA, and so ate the cost of the type. IMHO though, any flying training you can get helps, and won't hurt you on a resume (A good pilot is always learning...that kind of thing). Also, I was able to write it all off as a tax deduction, which REALLY helped. It really depends on your own situation...at the time, it was a great investment for the future! And since I had started planning to spend the money almost 2 years out, it wasn't a huge deal to not have needed it...

Anyway, you never know, it's more knowledge in the ol' bucket...

Fly Safe!

FastCargo

 

[LiveFreeorDie]

YOU ARE TALKIN BOUT ME

I am the one who interviewed last summer with out my type and thanx for rubbing it in

I could not get my type because

1) I was denied terminal leave because my squad was short pilots PRIOR to Sept 11

2) Because I was not on terminal leave Sept 11th, I was stop lossed.

3) My leave for birth of son on Sept 19th cancelled

4) Leave for Type class in October CANCELLED

5) Replacement leave for type in December CANCELLED

6) Finally had to get two week type in Florida keft the day after I got back from a three month tour (over Christmas) to Qatar!


So that is why I am annoyed at your post. You think I don't know how much money I lost on this???

With out stop loss I would have been in the Jan class. Even with stop loss and a type in October, I would have been in the July class.

I am having enough trouble making ends meet for my wife and three kids with out being reminded of how much money I might have had if only I had gotten a type.

So before you write stuff like this think about what you are saying and who may be reading it. Your post ruined an otherwise great day.

 

[CoopDog]

FOX Alert

Man, this stuff is better than Hannity & Colmes.

 

[RightBettor]

Woah fellas!!

Okay, gang, time out.

"LiveFree" while I can certainly appreciate the frustration you endured while your schedule and planning got all screwed up, do you really think it is fair for folks to leapfrog others in the line-up? You say you've asked Linsdey to consider your circumstances when assigning classes. I do not doubt you have had your share of frustrating experiences in getting a type scheduled, but I would submit to you that may others have also had scheduling problems... not just military folks. Here's what I'm getting at:

I did my interview on February 14, 2001. Decision board met sometime in March 2001. Due to a major paperwork shuffle with a former employer (located in a US territory... hence the paper chase) I did not get my "go get a type rating" letter until May of 2001. Two months behind now. Meanwhile, I go to new-hire training with another airline. This is a new job, so... 1) I can't just ask for two weeks off to get the type rating, 2) I can't just quit and hope SWA continues to hire while getting a type rating and sitting at home with no paycheck. Therefore, I have to coordinate time off with my current employer (no vacation built up) in order to get my type rating. Additionally, my wife gives birth to our first child in June of 2001 after a difficult delivery, and I was able to BORROW vacation from 2002 with current employer in order to get time off for the delivery/recovery/getting-to-know-baby-time. I figured I'd get some time off after the summer to get the type rating (deadline for SWA 6-month window is mid-November 2001). Well guess what... Sept 11, 2001 comes along. Now I am getting furloughed and trying to schedule the type rating class. First thing available is late October finishing November 7, 2001. So to make a long story short, I now swim in the pool with no prospects for a class date anytime soon.

Futhermore, my wife and I are also having a difficult time making ends meet these days, and there aren't a lot of jobs available in corporate America. As I am sure you know, things in the job market are tight. And don't even bother trying to get a flying job somewhere while on furlough from a major airline WITH a B-737 type rating in your pocket. First comment is always, "So when ya goin' back to United?" Next comment is, "I see you have a 737 type rating, so when is Southwest going to call?" Final comment is, "Thanks for coming in today!"

I don't want you to take this post wrong. I am not trying to downplay your recent hardships or snub your military service. But I don't think it's appropriate for people to jump ahead in the line just because they got held up somewhere in the process. Many of us have had some sort of delay and/or hardship while trying to get the interview, the type rating, the pilot records forwarded in a timely manner, etc. All these things serve to push us further back in the line.

Finally, I don't think "Tredding" intended to be insensitive to anyone. If you read his other posts, you'd realize he just seems to enjoy typing out his thoughts. Perhaps he should have used better discretion, but I would like to think most of us are big boys and girls and we can take it.

I hope if Lindsey and SWA management are going to consider moving military folks to the front of the line because they got delayed in scheduling a type rating, then the hardships of others will also be taken into consideration. At this point, we are all pretty much on the same level. Having said that I really hope people get called up in order. It would certainly make life planning easier for all involved... front or back of the line.

Respectfully,
RightBettor

Okay gang... flame away!

 

[LiveFreeorDie]

leap frogging

RightBettor -

It certianly is tough getting by when you are furloughed. And congratulations on your son. I don't think anything will come of the conversations with Lindsey so don't get too upset.

My main point is that not every one just decided not to get their type rating cause they didn't want to invest the 7-10,000 dollars.

I try not to dwell on the what-if's... it is just that tredding really poked at a raw nerve with me.

And you can't know what it is like to be told you have to stay in the military after you have served your commitment and then be told you have to go away from your wife and kids... again for the thousanth time. And it isn't like an airline trip. Your kids don't see you or talk to you for weeks or months.

Being stop-lossed means you have zero options. At least at your job you could quit and go on unemployment or move in with your parents. In the military you can't just say I am tired of being gone 180 days a year, I quit. Besides we had a job we had to do after the 11th and despite what you hear on the networks, I think we did a pretty good job.

The bottom line is -- I don't appreciate someone gloating over the alleged senority he gained by my not getting a type rating. It is rude to point it out wether it was poor planning on my part or circumstances beyond my control, it is still rude to rub it in.

 

[RightBettor]

Glad to read the polite response.

LiveFree:

You make some excellent points, and I want you to know that I for one appreciate the hard work, dedication, and sacrifice you military folks have made.

I know what it is like for someone to hit that "raw-nerve" you speak of. I had a SkyWest pilot laugh at my misfortune of getting furloughed from United. I was on my way back to LAX from PHX after getting my type rating, and this putz says, "Hey look, I got your job, ha ha ha!! See, you shouldn't have left SkyWest!! Ha ha ha!!" Needless to say, I wasn't impressed.

I hope this is all a moot point by the end of 2003, and we can find something else to discuss over a few cold ones!

I am really glad your response was cordial. I wish everyone would use good manners on the boards. Thanks.

Regards,
RightBettor

P.S. I'm not so sure about the quitting, going on unemployment, and moving in with the parents thing. With a pregnant wife, I needed the health insurance. We got an EOB from the health insurance company... they paid out about $60 grand for the c-section delivery!!!! OUCH!!!! Good thing we were covered. Besides my work ethic is too strong to live at home and have you taxpayers foot my bills.

 

[LiveFreeorDie]

RightBettor

Ditto

It was hard to be coordial. (I actually went back and edited the post a bit to make it less harsh.) But I know tredding didn't mean it.

You must have felt like chocking that SkyWest pilot. I'd still rather be furloughed from UAL. I have never heard anything positive about flying for that outfit. ANd if he could have he would have been in your shoes.

Yeah the health insurance is killing me right now. I can't afford to pay the $750 a month my employer charges. I am just hoping I get on sooner than latter with SWA. I could go back to the military or fly for the guard/reserve, but I am not willing to pay that price at the moment. My wife and kids love my being home every night and weekend. I am even able to coach my 6yr olds soccer team cause I can commit to being there!!! That part of it is great. But having to worry about money is new for me and it BLOWS!

Well take care and good luck

 

[RightBettor]

Staying home and ideas for health insurance

LiveFree:

My silver lining in this big gray cloud is that I have been able to spend my son's first year at home. I was home for his first crawl, first steps, first birthday, first "Dada!", you name it. I wouldn't trade that for anything.

Look into purchasing health insurance on your own. I am currently working as a contractor so I have to pay out of pocket. My wife and I got approved for Kaiser at $303/month and Blue Cross of California for $430/month. Both include dental!! You can find some good deals for individual plans. Research it online.

Regards,
RightBettor

PM if you want more info.

 

[Lonestar]

Speed Racer

First of all, let me say, that you have a dream job that most pilots would dream of having (I'm assuming that you work for FedEx) and that you will have a VERY rewarding career at the carrier of YOUR choice. When you retire, you will undoubtedly look back on you years as a pilot and smile...And yes, you will be (and probably already are) ONE RICH MO-FO! That's great! We should all be so lucky to have the job we have always dreamed of AND get filthy-stinking rich doing it. I commend you.

Now, as for me (and I would imagine several other SWA poolies would agree) am right where I want to be too. I grew up here in Texas and was born shortly after a little known airline called Southwest started flying around. From a very early age, SWA was the ONLY place I ever wanted to work. So, after paying a FEW dues in the cargo world, I found myself nearing the mins to apply at MY dream carrier...Southwest. As soon I had 1000 turbine PIC (1015 to be exact) I was in type class and got the call for my interview the day of my 737 type ride. A week later I was in my interview suit doing exactly what I had always dreamed of...interviewing for MY dream job.

I know you probably don't understand why people want to work for SWA and especially why people want to pay $7K plus to do it, but that's o.k. You have found YOUR dream job and so have WE. I will wait " 'til the cows come home" to go to class at the airline I grew up with. So please, don't rain on my parade and I won't rain on yours.