Vacating altitudes

[A Squared]

Is there a requirement or reference to advise controllers the aircrafts altitude when switching from one sector to another within the same facility.

For example, when Indy Center hands you off to another Indy center controller is a pilot required to state the aircrafts altitude?

Also, is there a difference between Center facilities and terminal facilities. IOW, is there a reference or a different one for terminal facilities.

I don't think so, but it's a little gray. As I understand it, you state your *exact" altitude on initial callup to each facility so the controller can compare your mode C readout to your stated altitude. Theoretically, subsequent sectors in the same facitility will be using the same radar equipment, which has already been cross checked with your stated altitude and readout. In reality, the Radar at any facility, especially a large ARTCC is a composite of input from a number of different antennae. I usually state my altitude any time I'm switched to a different controller.

 

[ReverseSensing]

I'm not beating my chest about anything.

I swear I don't know why I bother trying to play nice with you. It's utterly pointless.

 

[avbug]

Apparently because you're unable to stay on topic, and instead. Don't bother playing nice on my part. I have no idea what you're talking about...or how it applies to regulation...but whatever. Take your medication and have a nice day.

 

[ReverseSensing]

Apparently because you're unable to stay on topic, and instead.

You're the one who wandered off on the "AIM isn't regulatory" tangent, not me, jackass. I was just seeking clarification of your assumptions and claims.

Don't bother playing nice on my part.

Forgive me for trying to engage you on an important subject you raised. My mistake.

I have no idea what you're talking about...or how it applies to regulation...but whatever.

Oh, I'm quite sure you understand exactly what I'm talking about. You're an abrasive prick, but you're not stupid.

Take your medication and have a nice day.

This is exactly the point I was making by asking, rhetorically, why I bother. If you don't like me, fine. If you don't want to address my point, fine. But as a professional aviator, insinuating a fellow pilot is medicated because you disagree is tacky, immature and uncalled for. Right up your alley.

 

[avbug]

...not me, jackass. You're an abrasive prick,...

Eeegads, we have a professional in the house. Have you anything to say about the thread topic at hand, or has lack of intelligent rational thought swayed you toward your only remaining foothold in the conversation, namely, throwing insults?

 

[ackattacker]

Back on topic....

Tying up an already busy frequency with a courtesy call that you're vacating an assigned altitude when you're in radar contact and the controller can see you vacating the altitude is wasteful, discourteous, and a safety hazard.

Nope, this is a fallacy, radar has *not* taken the urgency out of it, and they do *not* view it as unneeded. Read Don Brown's columns on Avweb for a very good explanation of why it makes thier job harder if you skip it. these things are not always obvious from the pilot side of things, and assuming that it's not needed because they have us on radar is incorrect.

Who is correct? I don't know, but I think about it a lot. Nearly every flight in the region I fly in I get a PD descent. I've heard it both ways. Most people out here skip the descent call. The controllers *out here* say they don't care.

 

[avbug]

Ackattacker,

I don't believe the quotes you posted disagree, neither is incorrect. A Squared is correctly stating that no allevaition is provided in the requirement to report. I correctly stated that during frequency congestion, further tying up the frequency may not be conducive to safety. This doesn't change the requirement to report, at all times, vacating a previously assigned altitude.

Frequency congestion is not an emergency. I don't think anyone would argue that during an actual emergency, however, talking is the lesser of the priorities one may address. I've had an employer and an instructor once strongly advise me that during a depressurization, I cannot descend until I've discussed it with ATC. I knew a pilot who made an emergency descent two years ago, and did an admirable job of managing his cockpit and getting down. When the company learned of what occured, the Director of Operations of all people wrote him up for failure to notify ATC of his descent and obtain a clearance.

Technically, of course, an emergency alleviates one of the requirement to comply with the regulation (or in this case the proceedure) insofar as necessary to meet the demands of the situation. Practically speaking, getting on oxygen, retarding power, running checklists, establishing cockpit communication, and so forth, were a much higher priority than notifying ATC that the flight had just vacated the altitude. ATC was notified as soon as possible. In practice, in the real world, I let ATC know when I'm switching altitudes, but withhold this report in the presence of radio congestion, or delay the report until there's a break in transmissions.

I don't believe anything in the regulation or AIM should be construed in this case to infer that one should not descend/climb until the report has been made, or that the report must be made the split second the change in altitude is commenced.

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

When a controller issues another altitude, either climbing or decending, you are expected to comply promtly with those instructions. IE - "Jambo18 Heavy, decend and maintain FL240" The response should be " FL240 Jambo18 heavy and begin decent immediately. Climbing is the same. If the controller gives a crossing restriction - "Jambo18 heavy, cross Lendy at and maintain FL190", the response should be "Cross Lendy at FL190, Jambo18 heavy". When a controller issues a Pilots Discretion decent, IE - Jambo18 heavy, decend at pilots discretion, maintain FL180", the response should be "FL180 at pilots discretion for Jambo18 heavy". The next transmission from him should be "XYZ center, Jambo18 heavy departing FL240 for FL180". Usually the response from the center is "Roger" or "Jambo18 heavy, roger" something along those lines. He might not depending on if he is on the landline doing coordination.

avbug and Asquared are also correct in stating altitude on initial contact with the controller, climbing, decending or level, it doesn't matter. When you are switched to a different controller, you are making INITIAL contact with that controller.

 

[ackattacker]

I still think there is a disagreement here.

You're not required to report vacating the altitude on a PD, or when the clearance involves a crossing restriction. I generally do as it's a profesional courtesy, provided the frequency isn't too congested.

The way I see it is more like nosehair does:

Now, since radar has taken the urgency out of these reports, ATC does not reprimand you for not doing it, and maybe they don't want you to bother them with this "unneeded" report, but, as I see it, it is still required.

Personally I fly in an extremely uncongested airspace. It is not uncommon for me to be the only aircraft under FL180 within a 100 mile radius. They usually give me a pilot's discretion descent as soon as I reach cruise altitude (if not sooner). I used to report leaving every time until I got the impression from the controllers that they thought I was being a smart-ass. So now I don't.

 

[minitour]

I follow the AIM and report leaving previously assigned altitudes. Even in congested airspace where I consider it to be a more important report. You never know when your info-block is going to be covered by another a/c that ATC wants to move but can't tell if you're out from under them.

JMHO

-mini