V1, Vr and V2 question

[Loafman]

Just a sidenote to the V1, go/no go discussion, there may be additional circumstances you want to take into consideration when briefing aborted takeoff considerations. Short or contaminated runways or low visibility may dictate which abnormals/emergencies you abort for and those that it would be safer to continue the takeoff even prior to reaching V1. In those cases, a 70 or 80 knot call would define the point at which you'd only abort for engine fire/failure or aircraft controllability problems.

 

[Snoopy58]

enough runway left to stop with normal braking, meaning no reverse.

I think most V1 charts assume max antiskid braking, which is a whole lot beyond what most of us ever feel on landing, even at a place like MDW.

But you're right: loaded to the gills with "170#" pax on a hot day at a short runway, you're on the edge of just enough performance to make it work if you lose one at just the wrong moment. Enough, but not a lot more.

 

[TurboS7]

Good discussion. V1 is a hard number it shouldn't be compromised on a FAR25 aircraft. There are many approved ways to "slide V1" they will be in the appropriate performance manuals for your operation and aircraft. The bottom line is that if the book says it will fly it will. In the case of the DC-10 they had lost all their hydraulics and an engine. Usually performance guys don't figure that into the equation. The DC-10 didn't have an engine failure it had a catatrophic failure, in which case only the wits and wisdom of the flight crew will bail it out. Something major going wrong demands something major in the other direction to offset it. In the case of the DC-10 going for the speed would have saved it. Now we come to negative training in the sim, we teach for what we think will happen not for what will. Now days with the type of engines that we have if there is a failure usually something really bad has happened, that needs to be evaulated before slugging into emergency procedure. Our engine failure checklist is not by memory anymore, we evaulate it and work our way through it.

 

[enigma]

Our engine failure checklist is not by memory anymore, we evaulate it and work our way through it.

Same here. The Engine Fire/Sever Damage/ Separation Checklist is still a memory item, but not the Engine Failure.

regards,
enigma

 

[SquirrelDog]

Actually VR can be lower than V1 according to the charts of our Aircraft. In some instances, due to temp, airport elevation, runway length and use of flaps VR is lower. This does not mean we rotate at VR and then make the decision at V1, we just move VR up to V1 to make it the same speed. It is only a few knots lower anyway in this rare situation.

Loafman makes a good point, in which making a decision early in the acceleration process, about only aborting for Engine failures after a "said" speed for critical issues. That is why a proper pre-take off breifing is important for each takeoff and the different conditions.

BTW isn't a balanced field also one that at higher elevations such as 7000 msl has a runway 7000 feet or longer. Something I heard awhile back.

Oh, if I lose 1 at VR 3500 down a 13,000 foot runway at 8,500 msl with a 85F outside temp, The B#tch is staying on the ground Screw the Brakes, I got several sets anyways! Been there done that.

Fly safe Squirreldog

 

[SkyWestCRJPilot]

For those of you advocating keeping the airplane on the ground after V1 if you have plenty of runway, I don't know what type of airplane you are flying and perhaps in certain circumstances you are correct. But in the CRJ which I fly there is zero chance I would abort after V1 no matter what. After V1 the airplane is a flying machine and flies better than as a high speed land machine. Even if the runway were 50,000 feet long I wouldn't abort after V1 with an engine failure. I know beforehand that we have plenty of performance on the other engine and we've trained for it (if you don't have the performance you shouldn't be taking off at that weight). It is much safer to takeoff and deal with the emergency in the air than try to slow a fast moving turbojet on the ground. Tires can blow and catch fire, directional control can be lost, and you can kill a lot more people that way than by just taking off and coming back around after completing the memory and emergency checklist items. When I flew the Chieftain I would consider landing on the remaining runway after takeoff if an engine quit. I don't know what type of airplane those of you are flying that advocate aborting after V1 but I say no way for any turbofan/jet.

 

[bigsky]

If my memory serves me correctly(maybe does-maybe doesnt) but the DC-10 in Chicago had the whole engine rip off the wings at the pylon-- destroying and retracting some of the slats when it went... that I believe is the main reason they lost it when they pitched up to V2.
The DC-10 then sent a software fix so on engine failure the pitch bar would maintain either v2 or what ever speed it was currently at(the higher of the 2 within reason)

 

[enigma]

Oh, if I lose 1 at VR 3500 down a 13,000 foot runway at 8,500 msl with a 85F outside temp, The B#tch is staying on the ground Screw the Brakes, I got several sets anyways! Been there done that.

You're missing the point. Brake energy limits have nothing to do with brake maintenance, they have to do with performance. If you have 1000 units of energy to disapate, but your brakes can only absorb 800 units, you will not stop. If you abort in said situation, you will find yourself moving down the runway unable to stop and fight the fires eminating from the truks. Not a real nice situation. When you do finally coast to a stop, the pax will initiate the evac on their own, and at least two major injuries will occur in the evacuation. You will then be doing the carpet dance with both the FAA and in the CP's office explaining why you choose to disregard standard operating procedure/recognized safe procedures.

something to think about.

regards,
enigma

 

[blott]

But in the CRJ which I fly there is zero chance I would abort after V1 no matter what.

Even if the runway were 50,000 feet long I wouldn't abort after V1 with an engine failure.

"NO matter what"? how about if both wings fell off? I can see it now...wings laying 1000' behind you on the runway, you past V1, pulling back...at least you could say "I died trying" , then again, I guess you couldn't say that.

50,000' and you still aren't going to abort? You are a smoking hole in the ground waiting to happen-think about it...

B

 

[100LL... Again!]

The following is from one of my earlier posts.
Search under my username to see the replies.




Warning - the following post contains no references to Delta, Comair, PFT, the RJDC, Freedom, or airline management. I.e. BORING!
------------------------------
To answer your question-

There is no real easy way - you might try that book that was mentioned.

Also, I have heard of a book by a European pilot called "From Takeoff to Landing.' If you find it, let me know - I haven't tried yet.

Some knowledge of the Terps is helpful. Specifically, what gradients are, how they are used to compute takeoff performance, but here is what I got off the top of my head:

Correct me if I got this stuff wrong.

Segt1- Liftoff to gear retraction, assumed to be 35' over the end of the runway.

Segt2- Initial Climb at V2. This segt is complete at 400 abv the runway, or the acceleration altitude. Most are 400'. Obsacles can dictate higher. Roanoke, Aspen, etc.

Segt3- Level off and accelerate to flap retraction speed. Retract flaps.

Segt4- Climb to 1500' abv rwy elev. at whatever speed the manual dictates. V-whatever, varies among aircraft.


Vef- The speed at which the engine is assumed to fail. (Basically V1 minus pilot reaction time.)

V1- The speed above which a takeoff will be performed regardless of engine failure. Depending on weight, can also be the max speed from which an accelerate-stop can be accomplished (on the runway).
At low weights, there are a range of possible V1 speeds, limited on the upper end by stopping ability. Limited on the lower end by one engine acceleeration ability.

Example: Take a 727 at a light weight. If v1 is too high, an abort would take you off the pavement even if done before V1. If V1 was (for sake of argument) 10 knots, the airplane might not be able to accelerate to Vr before running out of runway.

As you get heavier, the spread between the upper and lower limit converge. (KINDA like Vy and Vx do).


Vr- The speed at which a normal rate of rotation will produce V2 at 35' abv the runway. (not necessarily the runwway end.)

Vmu- Min unstick speed figures, in but can't remember how off the top of my head.

V2- takeoff safety speed. A VERY ROUGH analogy would be Vx. This speed is designed to get you over the obstacles. It is limited by (among other things) Vmca and Vs.

I think the factors are 1.1 Vmca and 1.2 Vs.
Therefore an airplane with tail mounted engines would probably have V2 limited by Vs, since there is little assymetric thrust. Wing mounted engines could go either way. If lots of power is available and the weight is low, 1.2 Vs might be lower than 1.1 Vmca.
If the weight is high, 1.2 Vs will probably be more limiting than 1.1 Vmca.

Vs is stall speed for the takeoff configuration being used.
Vmca is what you think it is. Air minimum control speed.

There are several (depending on aircraft) V-designators for the speed at which the flap retraction BEGINS, as well as the fourth-segment climb speed. Check the manual.


Vmcg- Ground minimum control speed. This is the speed ABOVE which, when an engine is lost, control of the aircraft can be maintained on the ground USING ONLY AERODYNAMIC CONTROLS. No nosewheel steering. "Control" means being able to keep it within 30' of the centerline after an engine failure. Yee-Ha!

Again, off the top of my head, I can't remember if this speed is associated with V1 (my bet) or Vr/V2.



Climb gradients (not rates) are associated with 2, 3, or 4 engine aircraft, and affect how much performance is requied for each engine out condition.

Also, be careful, some gradients are published as percent slope, some as feet per nautical mile. NOT interchangeable - math required.

I worked out the formulas if you want them, along with some common gradients and slopes.


'scuse me now, I'm going to go try to get a life...




Oh yeah, read part 25 (also the perf. parts of 121) a couple times. It ain't that bad. Really.

 

[100LL... Again!]

A compromise in structural integrity or uncontained fire in the cabin are probably the only reasons I would consider an abort after V1.

BTW:
Depending on the aircraft data, even a perfectly executed stop at one knot prior to V1 can put you off the end. Some aircarft manufacturers specify the EXACT distance from start of roll to stop - of the main gear. That can put the nose of the end by a few feet.

Oh, and the Vmu thing?

I think that guy is being a bit of a harda$$ on his FO.

Vmu can be unpublished even if it is part of the flight test program if it is not relevant for pilot operations.

Also, I'll take a pilot who can stick to SOP when the $--- hits the fan ANY day over someone who can spew data like savant, then handles a V1 cut like a frightened monkey.

If you can fly it well, not knowing the minutia is unlikely to get you in an accident. Besides, if the real thing happens, are you going to sit there and get all philosophical about FAR 25 certification requirements? And if it never happens, who cares? Fly the plane, man.

That's what I love about flying - the very instant that I learn something new, every who doesn't know it is a bloomin' idiot.

 

[SkyWestCRJPilot]

"NO matter what"? how about if both wings fell off? I can see it now...wings laying 1000' behind you on the runway, you past V1, pulling back...at least you could say "I died trying" , then again, I guess you couldn't say that.

blott, sorry I've never encountered a scenario when my wings have fallen off, nor have I ever heard of that scenario. On the CRJ you just don't have time to think about aborting after V1. Things happen too fast. After V1 you go, before V1 you stop. Today for example our V1 and VR were both the same speed at a very fast 145 knots. If I were to abort after V1 in that instance then I would also be aborting after rotating. Perhaps there may be some obscure reason to abort after V1 but I've never heard of a realistic one. For what things would YOU abort after V1? I mean would you make a list and brief that on the takeoff briefing? The risks of aborting after V1 and crashing off the end or side of the runway are far greater than taking off and dealing with the emergency airborne. For me I abort for warning messages only before V1 and after V1 it's an inflight emergency and we handle it once we're stablized in the second segment climb or later.

 

[metrodriver]

I don't know if Vmmu applies to smaller planes. On long bodied planes it is a big factor since you can achieve an angle of attack that will sustain flight at lower speeds than normal Vr, but you will be scraping the tail over the ground. You will be above the stall speed. In a short bodied aircraft your Vmmu will pretty much be your stallspeed in ground effect at max angle of attack, but you will not necessarily be scraping the tail (that might require even more rotation).
On long bodied aircraft you rotate only a few degrees nose-up, lift off and then rotate to your climb pitch angle when you're sure the tail isn't going to touch the pavement anymore.

 

[Brother Francis]

If a problem occurs after V1 which renders the airplane unairworthy, you are just screwed. The Concorde is an example of that. They were well beyond V1 when the situation went south. If they had tried to abort, it is likely the result would have been the same, just at the end of a long set of skidmarks.

It's a no brainer if an engine quits at V1-5 and you are beyond V1 by the time you react. You know it will fly with an engine out. It gets interesting when an anomaly is a little less clear cut, such as an unidentified noise, smell or vibration at V1-5.

Would you rather your stop on two flat tires begin at the last possible instant (high speed abort) or from the 1000 ft markers at the approach end of the longest runway after plenty of time to evaluate, plan and call the fire trucks? On the flip side, did the shrapnel from the disintegrating tires cripple the plane?

Is the smell from a fire in the avionics bay? Will it burn through structure, hydraulic lines or fail your flight displays before you can get around the pattern?

If you are convinced the plane will not fly, don't fly it. But high speed aborts are one of the more dangerous procedures with which you can be faced even if initiated at V1, much less above it. That is why V1 is called "Decision Speed" and that's why, as they say, they pay you the big bucks.