V.America- u know your pay rates are worse than Spirits, right?

[NEDude]

Spirit is ALPA...Seemed to work

It took four years and a strike to work. And the MEC issued a back to work order before releasing any details of the TA so other than a small handfull, nobody really knows if it worked or not.

You simply cannot ignore the fact that ALPA created the downward pressure on salaries by repeatedly allowing the outsourcing of mainline jobs to poor paying regionals and putting thousands of mainline pilots out of work. That is ALPAs legacy, and one that is now coming back to haunt it.

 

[waveflyer]

The 2nd paragraph- I'll never argue with-
100%! well said

the 1st though is Bush's very open standing order to have no strikes under his NMB-
the problem you and I have is corruption within ALPA- short-sightedness and arrogance within the major pilot ranks-

What most pilots ignore as they dutifully cash their union paychecks twice a month are the politics involved in getting you that contract. Go ahead and blame ALPA-
a vague individual-less entity-
I blame pilots for not making ALPA what it used to be and for voting republican which absolutely does not support us or our contracts.

 

[Scope out RJ's]

And what companies created the "regional" industry? What pilot groups have been complicit in it's growth?

Aaaaah yes....The old, "It's all ALPA's fault." You seem to have no problem blaming them for just about everything, but can't seem to look in the mirror at the whole "pay for training" you endeavored to get your job at southwest, nor the fact that your pilot group was the caveat for "age 60."
Well done doosh!

The full circle Bill that I talked w/ you about before-
you guys sell out RJ flying to keep a bit more for yourself - and it puts very real downward pressure on everyone's wages- including yours- regional pilots will never have great leverage to up their pay- and no vote on how little or much flying gets contracted to them-

The only downward pressure we had on us was the ******************** wages southwest paid their employees. I'm just glad that the whole "pay for your job," wasn't even brought up. It's bad enough to have to work for less than southwest wages thanks to a trip to bankruptcy, but the fact that your employer makes you pay to go work there is unbelievable that you can point the blame somewhere else!

The ex Aloha and ATA guys at VA would have more leverage to up wages if they didn't know that the current VA wages provide a real step up for thousands of very good and qualified rj drivers- it's why FO pay is pretty consistent with rj capt pay.-

I lost all respect for Delta when around 2006- fully out of bk and on the upswing DALPA voted to allow 90seaters- (configured to 76-80pax) in order to get more pay for themselves. DAlpa have the least integrity and are the biggest cause for the race to the bottom this industry has seen in the last 10 years

I never had any respect for some pft southwest girl, but when you jerks voted to support age 65, you went down below gulfstream international.
Again, kudos to a job well done by the southwest pilot group for continuing to bring down the profession.

 

[Caveman]

The 2nd paragraph- I'll never argue with-
100%! well said

the 1st though is Bush's very open standing order to have no strikes under his NMB-
the problem you and I have is corruption within ALPA- short-sightedness and arrogance within the major pilot ranks-

What most pilots ignore as they dutifully cash their union paychecks twice a month are the politics involved in getting you that contract. Go ahead and blame ALPA-
a vague individual-less entity-
I blame pilots for not making ALPA what it used to be and for voting republican which absolutely does not support us or our contracts.

Even if I buy your assertion that Republican politicians are part of the problem I will still vote Republican over Democrat almost every time. Liberal Democrat socialism will do way more to harm to our way of life than an anti-labor NMB. It's not all about the paycheck my friend. There are bigger issues in play. YMMV.

 

[waveflyer]

Then caveman- where's your drive to decertify your union? Why don't you start a campaign for us to all have individual contracts? It all falls short on credibility as long as you are cashing your union paycheck- maybe you ought to focus on getting republicans to support our unions-

No- the socialism issue is a made up one to get your side back in the voting booth-

 

[Caveman]

I can't decertify a union I don't have. I work for B6. We're working on it.....

Unions don't provide paychecks. Employers do.

Maybe I was too vague in my first post. Let me spell it out for you. Foreign policy, national security, taxes, health care, social security, immigration, crime and government intrusion into our lives are all way more important to me than the political leanings of the members of the NMB. I do not vote simply because the candidate may or may not be labor friendly. It's an issue, but I care more about those other issues I mentioned. So far I haven't found a Democrat that thinks like I do about that stuff. Therefore I will continue to vote Republican/Libertarian/Independent.

If you want to be singularly focused on labor issues, knock yourself out. I find it to be somewhat selfish and self serving.

 

[waveflyer]

Then you've made your choice and don't bitch about declining wages.
It's not just selfish- I actually believe unions are a good balancing force and integral in maintaining a solid middle class- which IS good for the country-

 

[Caveman]

I'm not bitching about anything. You were pissing and moaning about pilots voting Republican.

I don't have a problem with private sector unions. I'm part of the organizing effort here at JetBlue. What I do have a problem with is myopic liberals sucking at the teat without any concern for the big picture. There are bigger issues in the world than airline pilot contracts.

 

[Busdriver320]

1st year. And don't forget they use MERIT upgrade.

Here are the FACTS:
Current rates as of June 1, 2010:
Capt (thru highest published) $100-105-110-115-120-125-127-129-131-133

FO (thru highest published) $44-57-65-70-75-80-82-83-84-85

Current upgrades going to late 2nd yr FOs, I believe.

Upgrade DOES NOT GO BACK TO YR 1 CAPT PAY. Longevity is longevity, just like anywhere else, PERIOD. It started as longevity-in-seat but that was discontinued sometime in 2008 as I recall, AND, it was retroactive for everyone affected (probably less than 75 pilots?), meaning when they changed the policy, everyone got a retro check for the difference.

NO merit upgrade. I've been here since 2007 and that WAS NOT the case then and hasn't been since. Pure seniority upgrade, contingent on passing training.

Can it be better? Hell yes. Will we get there? Eventually. Will we vote in a union at some point? Probably. Is QOL good? You bet! I'm in the bottom 50% of Capts and I fly 12 days/month, all commutable.

Other posters have said this, and I will confirm it: we have A LOT of people who feel ALPA has screwed them. Right or wrong, that's how they feel, and good luck getting them to change their minds. Also have a lot of republican-voting, anti-union types as well, so until these folks open their eyes to what's going on at places like Spirit and Allgiant we'll have an uphill battle to collective representation.

 

[relief tube]

all those here arguing that "yeah, they're pitiful but will get better" are missing the point. I have no doubt they will work hard to try to do that.

It's that this industry is now to a point where investors with deep pockets can start multiple airlines with sad rates, and pilots will go there. Those low rates will subsidize more planes and more routes (like Airtrain did with 20% growth for years) and those small players will become big players. Along the way those airlines with all their added competition and low fares will undoubtedly continue to kill this place and lead to more regionals flying routes they shouldn't and mainline guys getting furloughed.

If we wouldn't accept those pithy wages in the first place, those small startups wouldn't become national players.

Pax benefit from way to many airlines out there, but not a single pilot every has.