V! abort criteria

[getonit]

I have been doing some work with a simulator training company and am curious what you think the best criteria are for aborting a T/O. The two situations are any annuciator light before V1 abort and the other set of conditions is any light before 70 KIAS abort after 70 only an abort for engine failure, fire, red light or loss of directional control. I am going to tell you what I think and would like to hear constructive feedback.

I think you should abort for any light and here is why. I am looking at the CE-550 annuciator panel and I see a bunch of yellow lights, (this probably applies to most jets)

Generator light-would you want to launch into low IFR with icing with that light ON? I say NO.
Cabin door light? ie something is saying the door is open NO again
Low fuel pressure/level light - I say NO again
Etc.

I realize high speed aborts are riskier but aborting over V1 because the poor PNF is trying to figure/remember all of the different criteria ie we will launch with gen light coming on between 70 and V1 when weather is good 'vs' when the weather is bad, etc. makes it difficult and could lead to a bad decision when you only have seconds to decide, assuming this was covered in the briefing.

P.S. I am also looking for a job as SIC in CE-550

 

[jetdriven]

a high speed abort is probably more dangerous than a continued takeoff. Exceptionally so when the conditions are wet or icy.
For me its a rejected takeoff below 80 KTS for certain serious amber caution annunciators (autofeather off, AC buses, etc) , 80 KIAS to V1 requires an engine fire or failure, cabin door, oil pressure, etc. this is all from the 1900.

After V1 the takeoff must be continued unless the Captain believes the aircraft will not fly. (IE on fire or serious structural damage, collision with deer etc)

We have to fill out an occurrence report which gets forwarded to the FAA anytime we return to the gate or reject a takeoff among other things. I would hate to fill one out for rejecting a takeoff at 95 KIAS for a Left generator or a batt tie annunciator. These things happen and after 1500' AGL usually will reset, its a 3 item checklist. There are red lights for the enviro fail on a 1900D, but they illuminate AFTER the overtemp/overpress sensors trigger the shutoff valves. Red light annunciator on yes but almost less risk than having the power steering or FDR quit on takeoff. Better to go.

Regards to the generator light You are probably better off continuing unless it happened at 25 KTS or something like that. You have a gen on the other engine as well as the APU if it comes down to it. It wouldnt be an issue to me.

Airplanes will fly with the cabin door open, it just depends when the light comes on. VFR takeoff from a 13,000' runway at V1 probably OK to reject takeoff. Night IFR low visibility adds risk.

It all depends on the situation. Just remember that the shorter the runway, the worse the weather, and especially the faster you are going adds risk to the high speed rejected takeoff.

 

[Shag_McNasty]

Generator light-would you want to launch into low IFR with icing with that light ON? I say NO.

I've never flown the 550, but doesn't one gen give you enough juice to come back around and land? I say GO.

Cabin door light? ie something is saying the door is open NO again

The door light can come ON due to a failed or loose contact. It doesn't mean the door is actually open unless you turn around and see it open. I say GO.

Low fuel pressure/level light - I say NO again

I think the airplane is perfectly capable of flying on one engine. The low level light could very well be an erroneous indication. I say GO.

 

[Loafman]

Even with RED lights up to V1, you need to brief what you will initiate a high speed abort for. Engine Fire, Failure or serious doubt of whether or not the aircraft will fly (shifted CG, etc) should be the only high speed abort considerations. Modern aircraft have multiple redundancies that will allow you to return for an approach or proceed to a takeoff alternate. (you filed one for that 600 RVR departure, right?)

There heve been several instances of high speed aborts at regionals for "Config Trim" on the CRJ 200. This is a master warning, triple chime and red light. You just briefed them in the green and the correct stab trim on the T/O brief, so why initiate an abort near V1 for a flaky microswitch? All these problems compound when runway limited or with any form of contamination. The NTSB has published a lengthy document on high speed aborts as well as several training videos.

 

[TIS]

It's easy to fall into ...

... an all-or-nothing trap.

after 70 (knots) only an abort for engine failure, fire, red light or loss of directional control.

That's a nice thing to say but try having the sim instructor give you a double generator failure just prior to V1 and see what you do with the thrust levers.

You see, things that represent a major change in the way you perceive your situation will probably cause an instinctive and instantaneous abort whether it's warranted or not. The one I mentioned is especially true at night. During the day a cabin rapidly filling with smoke might cause the same thing and yet your briefing includes only fires, loss of power, red lights, and loss of directional control. You'd be aborting for a reason you didn't cover and someone would still be left scratching their head afterwards. Good CRM is dependent on saying what you mean and meaning what you say. Leaving stuff out provides an object lesson as you improve your CRM skills.

The bottom line is that you need to be intelligent in how you approach the business of performing the takeoff. You mentioned a generator light coming on when launching into low IFR. I might abort for that too - in a Hawker but certainly not in a GIII. I simply have more options in the GIII than in the Hawker.

Here's something too that you failed to consider: What would you do if the same thing happened on a VFR day with unlimited vis and no clouds? Your philosphy would have you abort, possibly damage the brakes or the aircraft all for an indication that one of your TWO generators, both of which can power the ENTIRE electrical system, was no longer connected to the electrical system. You've lost NOTHING (except perhaps a freon air conditioner) on this day when you need NOTHING and you're aborting??? That's not a good plan but if it was in your briefing - say what you mean - good CRM would have you do as you said you would do - mean what you say.

My departure briefing for a GIII goes something like this:

"We will CONSIDER aborting for any abnormality prior to 80 knots (no guarantees AT ALL - there's lots of time to think) After 80 knots we will abort for major malfunctions, loss of thrust, loss of directional control, engine fire, or any other abnormality that significantly alters the way we perceive our situation (smoke, lights all go out, screens all go blank). At or after V1 we treat the problem as an in flight emergency and take it into the air."

Notice there's no mention of lights. Most of the lights on the warning panel in the GIII are red and some of them simply do not carry that kind of weight. The color of a light, though not irrelevant, is only important when it is supported by system knowledge that provides an understanding of the true nature of the problem.

Aborting a takeoff is a VERY serious business and should not be undertaken without careful consideration. Am I suggesting that you take your time and sail right past V1 as you decide what to do in a real-life situation? Not on your life, but I am suggesting that there are some things you can make decisions about in advance so that they need only be implemented if and when that fateful day when you must do so arrives.

Take your time and think about everything you can imagine. Think very carefully and know that as you gain experience what you're comfortable with will change and so too will the manner in which you choose to run your show. Understanding that your way of approaching a problem will change with time is the key to understanding that command of an aircraft is a dynamic process, not a static display.

TIS

 

[mar]

Long time; No eyeballs

Good to 'see' you again TIS

 

[hobbsmeter]

TIS

Very good to "see" you again.

 

[TIS]

No matter what you fly...

... you're going to have a bunch of stuff flashing and dinging, or whatever your airplane does, to let you know that something serious is wrong.

My point was related to the CRM aspect of the scenario. You can cover more ground in your pre-departure briefing by covering certain subjects more globally than specifically so that the door stay open for the unexpected. This is particularly true if the F.O. has discretion over commanding aborts. The Captain had better be on board with the abort criteria so HE isn't surprised if one happens.

TIS

P.S. Don't forget the two little GEN lights, the AC MAIN, the red INV light which will also be on!